"Forgotten Serial Killers - Season Finale!"

[00:00:00] Our monsters made, born or something in between.

[00:00:07] Serial murderers have become the marquee stars for our failed planets' grim theater of

[00:00:13] the macabre because they help answer this chilling question.

[00:00:18] Dozens of podcasts, TV series and films streaming right now have lured in millions of fans

[00:00:25] simply by retracing the steps and seemingly inexplicable choices of serial killers.

[00:00:33] The spectacle of terror, they stir up out shines even the most scandalous headlines of kinky

[00:00:39] sex, violent assault or heartbreaking neglect, snaring not just our attention but the most

[00:00:47] existential questions lurking deep in our brainpans.

[00:00:53] There's nothing more human or timeless than trying to comprehend the behaviors of

[00:00:58] ostensible monsters leading generations of our kind to ask why?

[00:01:06] Why do they do what they do?

[00:01:09] But before understanding why, we must identify the what.

[00:01:14] Now for the purposes of this podcast it's essential to first establish what we mean by

[00:01:20] quote serial killer.

[00:01:22] Though limited in its scope, federal law defines serial killing as a series of three or more

[00:01:28] killings with common characteristics creating the reasonable assumption that the same actor

[00:01:36] or actors committed the crimes.

[00:01:39] This dear listeners is very different from mass murderers who load up an assault rifle and

[00:01:45] kill four or more people in a single event.

[00:01:49] But beyond this very basic framework and decades of work by criminologists and mental health

[00:01:56] experts, there's no real widely accepted template which accurately encompasses the behaviors

[00:02:04] of all serial killers.

[00:02:06] Because being a serial killer is not a clinical diagnosis and though there may be similarities

[00:02:13] across serial killing events, each horrifying example is frighteningly unique serial killers.

[00:02:21] Despite what some of the aforementioned podcasts and TV shows insist are not all dysfunctional

[00:02:28] loners nor are they all white males motivated by sex or evil geniuses or fame seeking maniacs

[00:02:37] hell bent on getting caught.

[00:02:39] Their methodologies can be as diverse as their causality and motivations even harder to

[00:02:45] track and codify.

[00:02:47] As it turns out, serial murderers like all humans are the product of their genes upbringing,

[00:02:54] socio economic luck and choices made throughout their lives.

[00:03:00] Excavating their back stories and terrible crimes thus tends to erase the question of why

[00:03:06] or what and replace it with something far more unnerving.

[00:03:11] Could I ever do what they've done?

[00:03:15] This is how serial killers have become the proverbial apex predators of our collective nightmares.

[00:03:22] It's not their size or raw power.

[00:03:25] Up close, we learn many of these fellas are flimsy little lymphics unable to survive in

[00:03:30] prison for very long.

[00:03:32] Potentially targeting only the most vulnerable amongst us.

[00:03:37] What makes them captivating is their relentless willingness to feed a demented hunger we all

[00:03:43] fear could be hiding somewhere deep inside of us or deep inside the neighbor next door.

[00:03:51] We think we know most people are acutely aware that the way we're all living are cruelty

[00:03:59] towards each other and the planet.

[00:04:02] Our binary way of dividing things into good or evil are obsession with hoarding money

[00:04:09] and things instead of sharing and caring in meaningful ways produces monsters as well

[00:04:16] as places where monsters can hide easily by looking more closely at the darkness around

[00:04:23] the serial killers instead of averting our eyes.

[00:04:28] We can actually confront some uncomfortable questions about ourselves and better understand

[00:04:34] why exactly taking compassionate care of the lowest in our communities matters so much

[00:04:43] but we have to be brave enough to look into that darkness.

[00:04:47] So let's maybe do that together now.

[00:04:51] The following podcast contains adult themes, gritty details from true crimes and naughty

[00:04:56] language.

[00:04:57] Listener discretion is advised.

[00:04:59] There's no time now.

[00:05:02] I began five years ago in secret working all night every night right into the dawn.

[00:05:08] A thousand experiments, a thousand failures, and then at last the great one of the day.

[00:05:20] Hello, all you spooky nerds.

[00:05:26] Welcome back to human fuckery.

[00:05:29] The only podcast dribbling grains of weird history, true crime and human psychology into a

[00:05:35] decorative glass bottle to create the audio equivalent of 1990's Sand Art.

[00:05:39] Look out!

[00:05:40] We're just trying to get a colorful intro.

[00:05:47] I am just one of your humble hosts, long suffering professional researcher and manic pixie dream

[00:05:53] squirrel Kimberly broadcasting to you from Satan's sweaty inflamed taint New Orleans,

[00:06:00] Louisiana.

[00:06:01] Joining me today as always for the very special season two finale episode is my beloved

[00:06:09] co-host clinical psychology smarty pants and menacing voiceover expert.

[00:06:15] Dr. Edward Simon menacing voiceover.

[00:06:22] Edward Kimberly it's the season finale.

[00:06:25] I know.

[00:06:26] We I just got a Facebook memory the other day reminding me that we just released our second

[00:06:33] episode a year ago on the day we're recording this.

[00:06:36] Yeah, fuck my life.

[00:06:38] We've been working on this episode for two months.

[00:06:41] Oh, I am aware.

[00:06:42] We have some very special guest judges.

[00:06:45] Yeah, I am a little starstruck, honestly.

[00:06:49] Since this is an extra special and extra long episode, I want to get into introducing

[00:06:54] the judges and sharing the stories ASAP but it bears mentioning that our last episode

[00:07:00] has become a surprise runaway hit.

[00:07:03] The true tale of WWE's exploiting homophobia to create one of the greatest wrestling characters

[00:07:08] ever.

[00:07:09] Gold.

[00:07:11] Racked up literally thousands of downloads since we shared it to the main feed during

[00:07:16] Pride season and had people DMing and texting us directly for two straight weeks.

[00:07:21] I told you to never underestimate the appeal of professional wrestling.

[00:07:26] You did and I believed you but I didn't realize how deeply Gold dust had penetrated into

[00:07:32] the psyche of millennial and gen X men of all sexual persuasions and had no idea how

[00:07:38] many people would write in gushing about the way either Goldie shaped their childhood

[00:07:43] or how passionately they despise Vince McMahon as adults.

[00:07:47] You had a very visceral interaction with one very excited gentleman, your ex-husband

[00:07:51] Ray Lopez.

[00:07:52] How was his response to learning of the news that Gold dust was the subject of our secret

[00:07:57] story?

[00:07:58] I believe I told you about this.

[00:07:59] The second I told him what the script was he started rubbing his nipples which at

[00:08:04] that point I did not understand because I hadn't viewed enough of the footage and the

[00:08:08] research to know that he was in but like he immediately began to impersonate.

[00:08:13] He started like with like list being and hissing and rubbing his nipples and then he did

[00:08:19] like this drop knee upper cut finishing move which I later learned was a thing that he

[00:08:23] did anyway it was it was fantastic.

[00:08:26] I'm going to mention another rate did in a second but like Ray wasn't the only one who had

[00:08:30] like people lost their goddamn minds over this.

[00:08:34] Julian in Colorado wrote to say quote fuck Vince McMahon right in his blown out raping

[00:08:40] narcissistic capitalist hamstrings which well said Julian Jason in New York wrote to beg

[00:08:48] everyone who is a Gold dust stand to familiarize themselves with the injustices voiced it upon

[00:08:53] his predecessor Adrienne Donnis.

[00:08:55] Definitely.

[00:08:56] I think sent us an archival image reminding everyone that the WWE apparently used to

[00:09:01] think it was funny to claim fighters had aides as a way of demeaning them.

[00:09:04] There is a photo of a guy saying Ratti Ratti Piper has aides yeah that that that was a

[00:09:11] okay and Joe on the East Coast message and this is a direct quote Jesus Christ it took this

[00:09:16] episode for me to realize Gold dust was gay as a kid I just thought they didn't like his

[00:09:21] gold paint but couldn't understand why I need some time alone to digest all of this.

[00:09:26] I immediately got a DM from a friend from college who worked for ESPN offering to try

[00:09:32] to put me in touch with Dustin Rennels I will let you guys know if that pans out please

[00:09:37] I'm begging I would do anything yeah Joe yeah that's that's relatable so I feel you.

[00:09:45] A reminder to listeners that the Gold dust story began as a secret story time these are

[00:09:51] episodes created specifically for paying subscribers over on our Patreon so if you liked it

[00:09:57] as much as these folks did hop over to the Patreon linked in our show notes and subscribe.

[00:10:03] Now that we're going on hiatus it's the one place you can keep getting new content from

[00:10:06] the human fuckery team plus there's literally dozens of previously really secret story time

[00:10:11] episodes you can unlock with like a few bucks I think we're on like 44 or something

[00:10:15] yeah it hours hours there's a lot of shit to digest.

[00:10:19] Yeah and it's like seven bucks if you want to be able to hear hours of stuff and

[00:10:23] let's do the thing where we tell new listeners the fuck is going on let's do it if

[00:10:27] you're brand new to human fuckery here's how the competition works Kimberly and I draw

[00:10:34] a topic out of a dusty mercury tainted top hat purchased from a haunted shop on Royal Street

[00:10:41] or in the case of today's episode we let some paying subscribers pick we each get some

[00:10:47] weeks to dig into the archives and find the best story from histories blown out colon that

[00:10:54] demonstrates the assigned themes.

[00:10:58] We get time in the studio to record and score our individual submissions then we meet here

[00:11:05] in human fuckery's fuckery dungeon to present our stories to some reluctant judges and have

[00:11:13] one of us declared the winner.

[00:11:17] In the process listeners we hope learn some stuff that helps them better face human fuckery

[00:11:24] in our daily lives.

[00:11:26] It should be noted that our intern slash producer slash CEO Gary the ghoul kidnaps the shows

[00:11:31] judges and the dead of night and forces them under threat of creative death to participate

[00:11:36] as such judges rulings are suspect at best and always coerced.

[00:11:42] Since guest judges were chosen this time based on their experience telling stories related

[00:11:48] to our assigned theme now's a good time to mention the subject of today's podcast is forgotten

[00:11:58] serial killers.

[00:12:06] Absolutely miserable subject to spend months reading and writing about guys thank you so much

[00:12:11] for nightmares no doubt really needed those.

[00:12:14] Yeah made me a better person but because we're talking serial killers this month Gary has

[00:12:22] kidnapped two cast members from the best TV show about multiple murders ever fucking

[00:12:31] made David Fincher's mind hunter of Netflix fame waiting in our dungeon holding cell right

[00:12:41] now is Holt McAlleney absolute legend of films and shows about men on the edge of madness

[00:12:50] or mayhem in addition to playing the square judge straight laced FBI agent Bill Tinch

[00:12:56] on mind hunter Holt has appeared in fight club three kings men of honor CSI Miami criminal

[00:13:04] minds law and order blue bloods Jack Reacher wrath of man and the upcoming mission impossible

[00:13:13] dead reckoning amongst so many others he has been cast as cops FBI agents military men

[00:13:21] and criminals more times than Kimberly's trolled manosphere influencers on the internet

[00:13:27] which is breath takingly saying something.

[00:13:30] Sorry Holt is joined by longtime friend of the pod two time Tony award winner Michael server

[00:13:39] is in addition to his landmark performances on Broadway as tortured killers like John Wilkes

[00:13:46] Booth in assassins and Swini in Swini Todd Michaels beautiful bald paint has been seen on screen

[00:13:54] as the observer on the hit sci fi series fringe professor pig on Gotham slapstick supervillain

[00:14:02] Ramses the fourth on the tick the voice of the demon therapist on evil a very nice butler

[00:14:09] on HBO's costume drama gilded age and that doctor who died in ant man and the wasp amongst many

[00:14:18] others on mind hunter he was featured as fancy FBI big wig Ted gun where he wore a fantastic pair

[00:14:27] of tartan golf pants like Holt he's been cast as a killer madman or tortured criminal more times

[00:14:35] than Gary the ghouls hump the studio skeleton which is also saying something Kimberly how are

[00:14:43] the guests being coerced today honestly given the heat way that's going on just leaving in the

[00:14:49] backyard for five minutes would have been plenty but Gary is a consummate professional who takes his

[00:14:54] craft seriously as such our steamed guests have been aggressively seasoned with crawfish boil spices

[00:15:02] and thrown into a hot tub with sausage potatoes and corncops they've been placed in direct Louisiana

[00:15:08] and we've hired a new warlands brass band to play the talking head psycho killer at them over

[00:15:13] and over four last nine hours there as flavorful as they are angry and I'm looking forward to getting

[00:15:21] their feedback on today's submissions it's been a very long 13 months of churning out episodes but

[00:15:28] I am going to miss cleaning up Gary's escapades during hiatus that creepy little fuck is something

[00:15:35] special you're not wrong oh legally we do need to mention for obvious reasons that today's

[00:15:41] episode was previously recorded because these are busy guys with real jobs and today's conversation

[00:15:46] with the guests predates the strike going on in Hollywood we 10,000% support every writer actor extra

[00:15:54] and wage slave in Hollywood being fairly compensated for making things CEOs categorically cannot

[00:16:00] and still can't believe Netflix would do something as abusive as cancel mine hunter midway

[00:16:04] through its run when it was the best god damn show on the entire network so Edward you uh

[00:16:09] you have a story to tell us I do this story is so horrible that I know it already because we

[00:16:16] did discuss prior to recording how many details we could actually give during the show without losing

[00:16:20] our entire audience I'm sorry it's just the assignment was to find a serial killer who most people

[00:16:26] don't know about and spotlight them I did that you did it you did do that and you did it so well

[00:16:32] that I may never fully recover since a compliment so let's get to the story with the added warning

[00:16:38] that hey listeners please don't ignore the content warning on this one it's really not appropriate

[00:16:43] for kids to hear and maybe triggering for victims of sexual violence take it away doctor Simon

[00:16:50] stay with us we'll be right back hello all you spooky nerds and also normal people with I don't

[00:16:59] know social skills and air fryer whatever it is that makes normal people normal we accept all

[00:17:04] kinds here and we also accept all kinds over on our patreon nice segue we get it everyone's broke

[00:17:12] everyone's got a patreon and no one wants to fill out yet another online payment form

[00:17:18] but if you're listening to this show then you'll actually love our patreon it's got all the best

[00:17:25] parts of the podcast weird stories from histories colon underscoring and silly sound effects dark

[00:17:30] psychology unless of the other leftover stuff us specifically less of us hammering every month

[00:17:38] subscribers get either one or two you get to pick slickly produced guest free and banter free

[00:17:45] episodes of secret story time our series covering wild stories and case studies ripped from the

[00:17:52] anals of human history subscribers also get long form written stories in case you're someone who

[00:17:58] still likes to read early and add free access to the usual monthly human fuckery competition show

[00:18:03] and the ability to pick what we'll write about or do new episodes on next you can literally send

[00:18:09] us a link being like tell this story and we'll go okay it's the best way to make sure we can keep

[00:18:14] doing this show and every subscription helps us keep Gary the ghoul housed it's hard to find a

[00:18:21] landlord who accept a demonic hell spawn with a torture fetish in this market you can help us

[00:18:27] keep Gary housed and this show alive by heading over to www.patrion.com backslash human fuckery

[00:18:34] just pick a tear enjoy the dozens of already released episodes of secret story time

[00:18:39] and wait till you see what we drop next month because yeah it's some entertaining fuckery

[00:18:49] picking a story for this episode was a tall order so many of the most gripping tales of serial murder

[00:18:57] an absolutely terrible and deplorable phenomenon mind you well they've already been detailed

[00:19:04] and discussed ad nozeme when someone even uses the phrase serial killer creepy american media flashbacks

[00:19:13] of Bundy Casey Dahmer in BTK almost instantly flash before our eyes Netflix HBO and dozens of other

[00:19:23] podcasts have gang bang humanities worst stories into prolapse now while serial murder is no way

[00:19:31] uniquely american we do seem to have the market cornered yield land of the free has produced nearly

[00:19:39] 68% of the serial killers the world has ever known a whopping 19 times more than the second place

[00:19:47] country on this list so it made sense to dig into the anals of international history to find a worthy

[00:19:56] contender to challenge Kimberly this month and sitting within many censored and blacked out pages

[00:20:04] from the former USSR I did find one brutal prolific and under reported case worthy of featuring

[00:20:14] but I must forewarn listeners before presenting his story this is an account of a deeply troubled

[00:20:21] individual and a moderately detailed reporting of the inhuman crimes he committed now per our show's

[00:20:29] norm I am not going to sensationalize the most triggering specifics for sport but I'm also going

[00:20:36] to do my best to tell this story as it truly happened for anyone acutely struggling with PTSD from

[00:20:44] sexual assault or child molestation respectfully this may be one you want to skip if you usually

[00:20:51] listen to our show with kids or younger family members around please don't do that this time for

[00:20:57] fuck's sake now if you choose to go forward and listen know that I am right here with you

[00:21:04] just as horrified by this sick thug as you are

[00:21:15] an old Russian proverb states that everyone is young in the winter cold

[00:21:22] the saying partially explains why during the week before Christmas 1978 the towns folk of

[00:21:30] shock the russia were traveling their frigid streets with an extra bit of enthusiasm to their step

[00:21:38] not even the icy conditions could force them inside such was their energy of the joyful coming

[00:21:45] holiday the inclement weather during that winter however well it was more than just a bit chilly

[00:21:52] you see Soviet Russia's cold is notorious for a reason and so it was unusual to find an actual

[00:21:59] young person traversing the slushy roads alone she stood out like something from a Russian fairy tale

[00:22:08] wearing a red coat with a black furry collar a rabbit hat and felt boots Yalana pushed

[00:22:15] through the rainy snow on her arduous journey home having just celebrated her 9th birthday

[00:22:21] over a month prior a girl her age should have been indoors already she'd been dismissed from school

[00:22:29] hours ago but on that evening Yalana had decided to accept an impromptu invitation to a friend's house

[00:22:38] the circumstances were extenuating like most children in her town Christmas was Yalana's favorite

[00:22:45] time of year but Russian Christmas is tricky you see according to their orthodox calendar

[00:22:52] Christmas day formerly falls on January 7th however in 1935 murderous cock goblin

[00:23:01] hills of Stalin declared Santa Claus would deliver gifts on New Year's Day creating a confusing

[00:23:08] mashup of adult and children's festivities come January 1st kids wrote and mailed letters to

[00:23:15] grandfather frost parents well they scribbled down their own wishes for the new year on little

[00:23:22] slips of paper and then burned them funneling the ashes into bottles of champagne or vodka

[00:23:28] essentially creating a magic elixir that all participating in the ritual must drink from

[00:23:36] now this nasty ass magic potion and adjacent party was responsible for Yalana's detour that evening

[00:23:43] as her schoolmate offered her an opportunity to drink and make wishes with her families

[00:23:50] champagne sludge the nine year old spent the evening eagerly drinking from the bottle wishing to

[00:23:57] whatever spirit governed the ashes that her daddy wouldn't have to work so hard this holiday season

[00:24:05] it wasn't until freezing rain began smacking the windows that she realized the hour had grown late

[00:24:13] Yalana hurried home in the darkness worried that by now her mother would be cross

[00:24:19] her little feet shuffled ahead frantically crunching and squishing through the now heavily falling

[00:24:25] snow as she trudged however it became clear to her that a second pair of feet were falling into

[00:24:33] step with hers Yalana turned and saw the silhouette of an older man move toward her the figure spoke

[00:24:40] in a baguilin and chowed like voice little girl do you want some candy i have bubble gum

[00:24:49] Yalana quickened her pace hoping the stranger would fall back and bother someone else

[00:24:55] but then he stepped into her path she could see his thick glasses long dark coat and broken smile

[00:25:02] but despite his abruptness there was a desperate kindness in his face the strange man reminded Yalana

[00:25:10] of her grandfather again he repeated his question would you like some bubble gum this time she took a

[00:25:18] piece the pair walked side by side for some time he asked her questions about her family friends and

[00:25:26] hobbies his warmth was reassuring and the interest he took in her well it was disarming but Yalana

[00:25:33] was growing uncomfortable but for reasons having little to do with her new friend her tiny bladder

[00:25:40] was swelling with alcohol and she was still a long way from home when the man noted her discomfort

[00:25:47] Yalana sheeplessly conveyed her dilemma she had to go bad but didn't want to strip down in freezing

[00:25:55] rain the stranger presented a solution i lived just a couple of minutes from here you can

[00:26:02] use the toilet there Yalana hesitated the man was peculiar and his odor even more so like a

[00:26:11] combination of sweat and feces and she noticed he was perspiring in the plummeting cold nevertheless

[00:26:20] she really needed to go and reluctantly followed the stranger down a narrow path off the main road

[00:26:27] eventually they approached a dilapidated shack it was the last place anyone would want to live

[00:26:34] as if someone had recreated her Thomas concait painting and then set the entire thing on fire

[00:26:40] the area was desolate with the battered shelter hidden by a threatening hover of trees and bushes

[00:26:47] the stranger fumbled with the lock finally opening the door and then switching on the light

[00:26:53] Yalana felt momentarily relieved but unfortunately she would never make it to the bathroom

[00:27:01] now dear listeners for your own well-being or let's just say mine we won't be following Yalana into

[00:27:08] that room what happens to her is something that no one should have to experience or relive in story

[00:27:17] her life of course amounted to much more than its tragic ending but that said we still need

[00:27:24] to know the relevant details as recorded by police investigators as the door locked behind them

[00:27:31] the unassuming older man metamorphosized into a fevered monster he threw Yalana to the floor

[00:27:39] then pushed himself onto her clothes were removed an effort was made to sexually assault the child

[00:27:45] but while something went wrong the man's body betrayed him he was unable to achieve a rousal

[00:27:52] ultimately preventing him from completing his heinous objective but through his violent aggression

[00:28:00] Yalana's private area was ruptured and she began to bleed now I share this wretched detail only

[00:28:07] because it served as a catalyst in the life of the perpetrator the sensation he experienced in response

[00:28:15] to Yalana's blood was like nothing he'd ever known the lust became overwhelming and that's when

[00:28:22] he remembered he had a small knife in his pocket just a few more drops of blood that's all he wanted

[00:28:31] rape was familiar to him but he was no killer however as Yalana screamed at the flick of his blade

[00:28:39] the monster lost control he stabbed her repeatedly piercing vital organs it couldn't have lasted

[00:28:46] more than a minute or two but once bathed in blood the wretch involuntarily ejaculated

[00:28:53] poor Yalana did not survive the encounter and the terrible thing that awakened that night

[00:28:59] roused from slumber by the sight of her blood would alter many lives in horrific ways over the years

[00:29:07] to come Yalana was found by police on December 24 1978 she'd been dumped in the Grusevka river

[00:29:17] bundled in a sack her school bag was found on the bank nearby rusta vandana was a city known for

[00:29:26] its crime but the murder of a child was an unfamiliar headline an intense investigation followed

[00:29:34] and eventually police captured a man named Alexander Kravchenko now the police were lauded for their

[00:29:41] prompt apprehending of the criminal and Kravchenko was expeditiously convicted of murder and then

[00:29:48] executed by gunshot but to everyone's horror the murders continued the next victim was found on

[00:29:56] September 4 1981 17 year old Larissa Kachenko disappeared while waiting for a bus to school she was

[00:30:05] eventually found in a forest beaten and exfixiated to death covered in leaves and newspaper amidst

[00:30:12] a violent struggle mud had been forced into her mouth and one nipple bitten off nine months later

[00:30:19] a 13 year old was found naked behind bushes after being abducted while returning from a shopping

[00:30:24] trip in the village of Donscoy 22 stab wounds and mutilated eye sockets punctuated her case

[00:30:32] file in the next three months the monster would kill five more times with victims of both sexes

[00:30:39] between the ages of nine and eighteen on December 10 1982 the killer escalated after a 10 year old

[00:30:48] girl was abducted while returning home by bus from her piano lessons a letter arrived at police

[00:30:55] headquarters during the search for her addressed to quote parents of the missing child the message

[00:31:02] was brief greetings parents don't get upset she is not the first and not the last before new year

[00:31:11] we need ten more she was found in a cornfield on the outskirts of town stabbed more than 50 times

[00:31:19] then gutted like livestock i witnessed this claim to have seen the perpetrator lure the young girl

[00:31:25] from the bus leading her away by hand but their statements did little police response was

[00:31:32] disorganized and anemic at best by January 1983 at least four killings were linked to the same

[00:31:40] mysterious individual with public outcry mounting higher ups and Moscow finally dispatched major

[00:31:48] mcgale fetus off to spearhead an investigation now called operation forest path under

[00:31:56] fetus off leadership ten investigators were assembled in rostov assigned to resolve the open

[00:32:02] cases in june nineteen eighty three the body of a fifteen year old Armenian girl was discovered

[00:32:09] near a railway platform near shakati making clear the killer was still out there and lusting

[00:32:16] for blood by september five more victims had fallen the mountain of corpses with precision wounds

[00:32:23] led police to theorize the killings were part of an organ harvesting operation or of course

[00:32:29] aceatonic cult law enforcement brainwashed by soviet propaganda focus their attention on

[00:32:36] dissidents the mentally disabled and homosexuals as their primary suspects police interrogation tactics

[00:32:44] of the time were notoriously brutal and by september nineteen eighty three severally mentally

[00:32:50] disabled youths had confessed to the murders additionally three homosexuals and one convicted

[00:32:57] sex offender committed suicide as a result of the torturous interactions with investigators

[00:33:03] but no matter how many confessions emerged the bodies continued to stack up on october 30th

[00:33:12] nineteen eighty three the disembowled corpse of Vera shevkun a nineteen year old prostitute was

[00:33:18] discovered two months later a fourteen year old schoolboy was lord of a train and murdered

[00:33:25] near a rural railway station his body was subjected to a masculination and then he endured over

[00:33:32] seventy stab wounds to his neck and upper torso before being gutted march twenty fourth saw the killer

[00:33:39] entice a ten year old boy from a stamp kiosk as he walked with the boy the perpetrator was noticed

[00:33:46] by multiple witnesses who provided investigators with the first comprehensive description of his

[00:33:52] appearance when the child's remains were discovered three days later law enforcement finally caught

[00:33:58] a break and uncovered a footprint left by the assailant semen and saliva samples from the victims

[00:34:05] clothing were also taken by october nineteen eighty four twenty three murders were now linked

[00:34:11] into one case an investigative manpower doubled but again the murders continued desperate police

[00:34:21] finally reached out to psychiatrist dr. Alexander bukanovsky it marked the first time in Soviet

[00:34:28] history that a mental health professional was consulted in relation to serial murder after analyzing

[00:34:35] the case files bukanovsky produced a sixty five page psychological profile of the man that police

[00:34:43] were after he described the perpetrator as a recluse between forty five and fifty who had

[00:34:49] undergone a painful and solitary upbringing the killer lacked the ability to engage in flirtation

[00:34:56] or romantic pursuits with women he was probably highly educated married and likely apparent

[00:35:03] he exhibited sadistic tendencies and struggled with impotence finding his only sexual gratification

[00:35:10] in the suffering of his victims the murders themselves mirrored the sexual acts he could not perform

[00:35:17] with his knife serving as a substitute for and remember this is the doctor talking his penis

[00:35:25] police also finally began to note that the murders usually occurred on weekdays near major

[00:35:32] transportation hubs throughout rostov oblast bukanovsky theorized that the killer's occupation

[00:35:39] necessitated frequent travel deducing from the days of the week the murders took place

[00:35:44] that the killer likely adhered to a work scheduled tie to production now it was assumed by this point

[00:35:51] that the monster followed news reports closely unfortunately because of government efforts to paint

[00:35:57] Soviet Russia as a safe utopia local newspapers were largely silent about the years long stretch

[00:36:04] of disembowments in some cases the discovery of a body earned barely a few inches at the bottom of a

[00:36:11] page though more than 30 people had now been killed by the mid-1980s the media produced new warnings

[00:36:19] to young women or parents and eyewitness descriptions of the killer were never shared

[00:36:25] and as a result over the next five years at least 15 more deaths were linked to the elusive

[00:36:33] specter thankfully by 1990 enough information had been made public to warrant intense political

[00:36:41] and social pressure in the USSR the grim spotlight fueled a now massive though embarrassingly belated

[00:36:50] police manhunt as authorities compiled locations where victims had been discovered real-way stations

[00:36:58] on one rail route throughout the rostov oblast paralleled their findings police enacted a plan

[00:37:05] to saturate larger regional stations with a noticeable uniformed police presence deploying 360

[00:37:14] men at train stations across rostov oblast placing undercover officers at the three smaller stations

[00:37:23] where the killer had struck most frequently they were going to smoke him out and the gambit paid off

[00:37:29] on november 6 1990 an undercover officer named Igor Rybakov observed a suspicious man arriving at

[00:37:39] one of the three smaller stations he then began immediately washing his hands and face in a nearby

[00:37:46] well he was covered in grass and soil stains but he also had a red smear on one cheek and a

[00:37:54] significant wound on one of his fingers now the railway station was notably surrounded by woodland

[00:38:01] areas and was often visited by wild mushroom foragers at that time of year but this suspicious man

[00:38:08] was wearing formal attire and wasn't carrying anything suitable for foraging Rybakov stopped

[00:38:14] the bloodied suspect and checked his papers but ultimately had no reason to arrest him that evening

[00:38:21] however officer Rybakov filed a routine report of the days events scribbling down the name

[00:38:28] Andrei Chikatilo the next week another body was found and the police summoned the records of all

[00:38:37] men stopped and interviewed during the preceding week Chikatilo's name finally surfaced in a meaningful

[00:38:44] way and strangely enough it was recognized by several officers working the case apparently Andrei

[00:38:52] had been questioned in 1984 and included in a 1987 suspect list circulated across the Soviet Union

[00:39:01] intrigued by this police dug into his backstory and discovered a frightening past Chikatilo had

[00:39:08] been forced out of multiple teaching jobs in the 1970s due to child molestation he'd even been

[00:39:15] a suspect in the Yelana Zakatnova killing in 1978 a list of items found in Chikatilo's suitcase

[00:39:22] when he was first detained years ago included a knife, lengths of rope and a small jar of Vaseline

[00:39:30] what the fuck plus one of Yelana's toys later found in his work locker he'd been released from

[00:39:37] custody because his blood type did not match what was discovered via the semen found at the crime scene

[00:39:45] regardless by cross referencing Chikatilo's current and past employers investigators

[00:39:51] established his presence in various towns and cities where several victims had been murdered

[00:39:57] and on November 14 police placed this sick fuck under 24 hour surveillance they observed him

[00:40:06] approach solitary young women or children on trains and buses engaging them in unwelcome conversation

[00:40:15] if the individual ended the exchange Chikatilo would wait a few minutes then seek out another

[00:40:21] person to begin speaking with after six days talking and stalking Chikatilo was seen leaving his

[00:40:28] residence carrying a large jar of beer police watched as he attempted to lure a young boy from

[00:40:35] the train station before managing to slip away the child told investigators the man had quote

[00:40:42] offered me some beer and suggested I go with him to his place to watch some videos can only imagine

[00:40:48] what those fucking videos were everyone had seen enough at precisely 340 pm on November 20

[00:40:57] undercover police officers emerged from an unmarked vehicle and approached Chikatilo outside a cafe

[00:41:05] what is your name they asked Chikatilo he responded no other words were spoken and Chikatilo's arms

[00:41:12] were placed behind his back and affixed with handcuffs he offered zero resistance and he asked

[00:41:20] no questions as to why he was even being arrested for the next 40 minutes back to police headquarters

[00:41:27] Andre Chikatilo said nothing a search of his bag yielded a length of rope and a nine inch blade

[00:41:35] officers pressed for a confession but still he said nothing the silence drove police nearly to

[00:41:42] exhaustion but after a couple of days they finally ground him down in a statement made on November 22nd

[00:41:51] Chikatilo spoke of his weakness for perverted sexual displays in films he said he sometimes could not

[00:42:00] control his actions adding I often used to spend time at railway stations in trains on suburban

[00:42:08] trains and in buses there are a lot of different tramps there both young and old they ask demand

[00:42:16] intake their drunk from the morning onwards I used to see scenes from the sex lives of these

[00:42:23] tramps at the railway stations and on the trains and I used to recall my humiliation that I had never

[00:42:30] been able to realize myself as a complete male the question arose of whether these degenerate

[00:42:36] elements had the right to exist it is not difficult to become acquainted with these people

[00:42:42] they don't try to hold themselves back they crawl into your very soul demanding money

[00:42:48] food and vodka and offering themselves for sex though indicating guilt Chikatilo remained vague

[00:42:56] in his statements refusing to provide specifics now steeped in his shame and humiliation

[00:43:26] it was not quite a confession the police needed more once again they tapped Dr. Alexander Bukanovsky

[00:43:35] and because psychology is actually useful despite what insecure sexually repressed American suburban

[00:43:42] ites might tell you the good doctor helped the killer open a doorway to his mind that

[00:43:49] up until that point remains securely shut

[00:43:52] here's the breakdown Andre Chikatilo was born October 16 1936 in the Eucarainian SSR at that time

[00:44:03] the country was in the throes of famine with Chikatilo claiming to have not even tasted bread

[00:44:09] until he was 12 under Stalin's force collectivization of agriculture and estimated 3 million people

[00:44:17] died of starvation and backbreaking labor hunger was such a relentless issue that the government

[00:44:24] released propaganda absolving cannibalism from the time he was five Andre's mother would often

[00:44:31] lament how his elder sibling had supposedly been eaten by hungry villagers this story both horrified

[00:44:38] and captivated young Andre Andre's father had been captured as a POW by Nazis during World War

[00:44:47] and in his absence the boy shared a bed with his mother he would routinely wet the mattress

[00:44:53] and subsequently received beatings as punishment instilling a deep sense of humiliation

[00:44:59] and self-hatred in the developing adolescent Andre also said he witnessed his mother being raped

[00:45:06] becoming pregnant and bearing the child of a Nazi soldier Chikatilo struggled to make social

[00:45:12] connections and was often bullied by his peers though his father was liberated in 1949 he was met

[00:45:20] with disdain by all those who knew him Stalin had encouraged all Russian soldiers to fight to the death

[00:45:28] making Andre's father a much hated coward by default eventually their one-room family home

[00:45:36] was burned to the ground by neighbors as the years passed Chikatilo grew increasingly isolated

[00:45:43] despite thriving in academic studies he graduated high school in 1954 the same year he committed his

[00:45:51] first sadistic act with his sister's friend 11-year-old Tanya Bala compelled by some sort of

[00:45:58] feral instinct he pushed her to the ground and laid on top of her ejaculating as she struggled

[00:46:05] he later told psychiatrist now despite this note worthy load blowing Andre was otherwise

[00:46:14] impotent as fuck fumbling many arranged dates during his college years he even dated a young

[00:46:21] divorcee in town but could not consummate the relationship in an effort to salvage their romance

[00:46:28] the woman innocently asked friends for advice on how to help her man overcome his inability to

[00:46:34] maintain an erection but as a result most of his peers discovered his secret he stated

[00:46:41] girls were going behind my back whispering that I was impotent I was so ashamed I tried to hang

[00:46:49] myself my mother and some young neighbors pulled me out of the news eventually Andre fled his homeland

[00:46:56] entirely several years later just as the doctor had predicted in his profile Chikatilo

[00:47:03] shockingly convinced a woman the adoja on the cheva to marry him this union essentially arranged by

[00:47:10] his younger sister materialized a mere two weeks after their initial meeting now once Andre's wife

[00:47:17] learned of his problems they agreed she would conceive by him ejaculating externally and then

[00:47:24] manually placing his seamen inside her somehow their marriage produced two children again as predicted

[00:47:33] despite his intimate suffering Chikatilo was a remarkably educated man by 1971 he had degrees

[00:47:41] in Russian language and literature engineering and Marxism Leninism a devoted communist he was

[00:47:48] considered a model citizen and esteemed family man to the outside world becoming a teacher of young

[00:47:55] minds now while this was indeed a position worthy of respect Andre near immediately experienced

[00:48:03] trouble controlling his students as a result violent thoughts he'd suppressed for years bubble to

[00:48:10] the surface it angered him that the kids he taught could fall in love and feel love while he

[00:48:18] could experience and control neither Andre began vengefully fondling himself in front of students

[00:48:25] and walking into the female dorms unannounced he remained in power for years molesting both

[00:48:32] boys and girls before finally being asked to resign in 1981 soon after he began a job as a

[00:48:40] supply clerk for a factory based in Rostov a gig which required extensive travel across much of the

[00:48:47] Soviet Union with diminished access to victims he would eventually buy the dilapidated shack

[00:48:54] in Shakti where his first gruesome murder would play out now he intended the hut as a sort of retreat

[00:49:01] a place to live out perverse sexual fantasies with the drug addicts and prostitutes alcoholics

[00:49:07] and underage vagrants he promised food or money to in return for sexual favors instead it became

[00:49:15] the womb wherein the red ripper was born after two hours of speaking with doctor Bukanovsky

[00:49:25] Chikotilo finally burst into tears and formally confessed to his unforgivable crimes he gave a detailed

[00:49:34] description of each murder consistent with known facts regarding each killing when prompted he drew

[00:49:41] a rough sketch of various crime scenes indicating the location of bodies and multiple landmarks nearby

[00:49:48] when discussing his victims to Chikotilo falsely categorize them as social outcasts he detailed

[00:49:56] binding their hands behind their backs with rope before proceeding to end their lives as a general

[00:50:02] rule the majority of his victims succumbed to multiple stab wounds before facing acts of cannibalism

[00:50:08] mutilation and necrophilia andrei later clarified that he craved human flesh while it was still warm

[00:50:16] tearing at victims genitalia lips nipples and tongues with his teeth he particularly enjoyed the

[00:50:24] mouthfeel of uterus and testicles which is the worst sentence i have ever read out loud into a

[00:50:32] microphone the ripper also confessed that his attacks began with a series of shallow wounds on

[00:50:38] the chest before progressing to inflict more profound stab wounds in the same area dozens of

[00:50:44] them while humping the victim to sexual satisfaction the stabbing was an effort to imitate having

[00:50:51] Chikotilo admitted that their cries the sight of blood and their suffering brought him a sense

[00:50:58] of deep relaxation and pleasure the nightmarish combination of killing and sexual gratification

[00:51:04] is clinically referred to as erotic on a philia a variant of lust murder which is notoriously

[00:51:11] difficult to identify due to the mess it makes at crime scenes that went asked why most of his

[00:51:18] victims had been stabbed in the eyes jikotilo explained despite his education it was

[00:51:25] Russian superstition folklore that says the image of a murderer is burned onto the victims'

[00:51:31] eyes and he wanted to ensure that that never happened fucking idiot chilling in every way

[00:51:37] andre's case is nonetheless worthy of extensive psychological analysis if only so we all remember

[00:51:45] why the fuck we need to collectively care for children and protect them from traumatic violence

[00:51:52] for example unresolved childhood experiences can spark a conflict between what Freud referred to

[00:51:59] as the id and super ego ultimately leading to the emergence of violent inclinations

[00:52:05] during chikotilo's formative years he faced bullying at school and endured regular physical

[00:52:11] abuse and humiliation from his mother displaced aggression makes it possible for some individuals who

[00:52:19] harbor pathological resentment toward their abusers to act that violence out on innocence

[00:52:26] who resemble their abuser the animosity remains pointed at the individual who caused them harm

[00:52:33] but the violent acts are forced onto others in andre's case women and children on October 20th

[00:52:41] 1991 chikotilo was transferred to the Serbsky Institute in Moscow for a 60 day psychiatric

[00:52:48] evaluation where he was deemed mentally competent to stand trial now he was brought to trial in

[00:52:55] rostoph on April 14th 1992 charged with 53 counts of murder in addition to five charges of sexual

[00:53:04] assault against minors committed during his time as a teacher an open trial chikotilo's case was

[00:53:10] the first major media event in post-soviet russia resulting in often contentious scenes between

[00:53:16] the judge chikotilo and the victim's families the oj trial had nothing on this shit at one point

[00:53:24] during the trial chikotilo stood up and exposed his limp dick to the entire courtroom a misguided

[00:53:31] effort to emphasize its uselessness and to no one surprise after about six months of an absolute

[00:53:38] shit show chikotilo was found guilty on October 14th 1992 a day later he was formally sentenced to

[00:53:46] death plus 86 years imprisonment for the 52 murders and assorted rapes when asked to speak in

[00:53:53] response to the verdict he again chose silence on valentine's day 1994 his appeals fully exhausted

[00:54:03] chikotilo was taken from his death row cell and brought to a soundproofed room to be executed while

[00:54:09] I your esteemed narrator extend him no pity whatsoever it's fair to make mention that on a day

[00:54:17] set aside to celebrate the love shared between people chikotilo died entirely alone for what he had

[00:54:23] done not even his wife was present in the end though she did state that quote i simply crossed

[00:54:30] him out of my life as if he had never existed we were never really in love anyway not even when

[00:54:36] we got married i only really married him because he was shy and modest and didn't drink or smoke

[00:54:43] Andre chikotilo the notorious red ripper of rastandan was killed by a single gunshot behind his right

[00:54:51] ear he was buried in an unmarked grave on prison property and to leave your exhausted ears with

[00:54:58] at least somewhat of a silver lining historians claim that due to operation forest path

[00:55:06] more than 1000 unrelated crimes including 95 murders 140 aggravated assaults and 245 rapes were solved

[00:55:22] all right we're back what do you think

[00:55:24] like i'm so disassociated right now that we fuck my even supposed to say um i think that that

[00:55:33] version of the story is uh absolutely fucking horrible and still somehow uh less horrible than

[00:55:41] the initial draft um people should know that there is more to this story and if you are the type of

[00:55:47] person who likes to hear about uh children being tortured uh i'm actually not going to tell you to go

[00:55:53] research more i'm going to tell you to go directly to a fucking hospital and talk to somebody about

[00:55:58] that because it's not normal and it's not okay and you will eventually be caught down and executed

[00:56:03] but i mean honestly though where do we fit into that equation though because we're bringing this story

[00:56:08] to people look i do think it's important to tell stories like these ones so that um people

[00:56:14] and you know maybe i'm being idealistic maybe it's dumb but uh you know like we did with the um

[00:56:19] the previous episode this season about our uh kids who kill um his stories are really great example of

[00:56:25] why you don't bring unwanted children into unstable situations and then force them to be in a lot

[00:56:32] of be alive in it i think it is actually important to hear stories like this because there are horrendous

[00:56:36] consequences to child abuse and to not taking care of poor people yeah and to demeaning people

[00:56:43] and to subjugating them and that's the eventually their fucking brains break and um this is a good

[00:56:48] if you don't like stuff like they if you don't want monsters like this to exist you have to actually

[00:56:53] take care of people um yeah and that means maybe taxing some billionaires and uh not um turning your

[00:57:01] nose up at homeless people because they're homeless you know like it's of course the the thing that

[00:57:05] really disturbed me in uh the story was exactly how long they were hyper focused on homosexuals

[00:57:12] and homeless people and vagrants um because that was you know part of the whole Soviet thing at

[00:57:17] the time but also that it that's not just a Soviet they were clearly off they were very very much

[00:57:23] to show off and you know we saw in doing the research for this episode uh and rewatching

[00:57:29] mind-tunter to prep for our guests uh there were a couple lines in that show about oh well i

[00:57:34] think we're probably going after a homosexual or pedophile and yeah i haven't be like no you did

[00:57:38] dipshits like it every criminal isn't a black guy a homeless guy or a gay guy like that's there's

[00:57:45] sure we're missing a big thing um i think this was an absolutely horrific story

[00:57:51] i think it's fascinating that it was suppressed for so long i think it shows how irresponsible it is

[00:57:56] to not share with people and their communities when these things are happening but that is actually

[00:58:00] very common thing and is the thing that still happens in the united states um i think the

[00:58:04] hyper focusing on them is uh still not healthy for us or good sensationalizing them you know

[00:58:10] sure people sending sexy pictures of themselves to manson and you know btk and all of

[00:58:15] that are you know any of the people in prison i should say um you know it's like it's actually a

[00:58:21] a pair of philia yes no it's hi brista philia oh wow yeah yeah it's uh it's it's with the word

[00:58:27] people have sexual interest or attraction to those who commit violent crimes that is wolf

[00:58:33] yeah um yeah i mean uh it's just i was really deeply affected by this particular story um and um

[00:58:45] i think that you did a great job retelling it as well as you could but it isn't an overwhelming

[00:58:51] story um filled with absolute heinousness and the worst of humanity on both ends sure

[00:58:57] was sure would you say chikotilo was a monster oh he specifically said that he was not a monster

[00:59:05] that he was not born this way and there is validity to that i think ultimately he became a monster

[00:59:11] i think that his behavior reflected that of a monster but there is validity in his saying that like

[00:59:18] i wasn't born with this wanting to to be like this i didn't want my life to become this yeah

[00:59:25] you know we talk about the making of a monster and whether it's nature versus nurture and

[00:59:31] sometimes it's it's it's even more than that there are other dimensions to it you can have a genetic

[00:59:36] predisposition to sociopathie or psychopathy but in andre cicotilo's case there there was also some

[00:59:43] biological factors i'm not just talking about genetics i'm not talking about his heredity um this man

[00:59:50] had something known as hydrocephalus which means that he had a build up of fluid a spinal fluid on

[00:59:56] his brain that is what caused the the urinary tract issues that caused the relentless bed wetting

[01:00:03] and eventually the erectile dysfunction how interesting also when they did an MRI of his brain like

[01:00:09] he had lesions all over his brain as well which is what he had like real like brain rot issues it

[01:00:16] definitely impacted his ability to experience empathy to experience guilt things like that but

[01:00:22] it was one of the reasons why he wore such thick glasses the lesions were so prominent that

[01:00:27] they were actually causing him to go blind um something i do like about your story is that i do

[01:00:32] think it's a good balance to mine yours had uh all of this backstory uh on this person we

[01:00:38] we the things that he did were horrible but we know some of the reasons that he did them though or at

[01:00:43] least you know the trauma that led to them and um we have there there's a lot more questions about

[01:00:49] my story so um let's get into it let's get into it

[01:01:02] the smell hit Julia as soon as she entered the cabin

[01:01:06] it felt thick in her nostrils a combination of sweet mold and funk so startling it was

[01:01:13] like walking into a net the space on either side of the doorway was nearly black candlelight in

[01:01:20] one corner only barely illuminating the edge of a bed maybe the arm of a chair Julia looked over

[01:01:26] her shoulder and saw the stagecoach she'd taken to the bender home disappearing down the dirt trail

[01:01:32] a flash of heat lightning illuminated the nearly empty prairie briefly she instantly regretted

[01:01:38] not riding her own horse Julia found Kate inside standing over an imposing walnut table

[01:01:44] which took up most of the cabin's kitchen area a reeking sink stacked with filthy dishes stood

[01:01:51] behind her candlelight flickered across her pale face as she prepared the circle on the table

[01:01:57] dark eyes shining as she welcomed Julia to their saience Julia looked around the decrepit little

[01:02:03] space noticing piles of refuse and unlaundered clothes strewn about it was shocking to learn a

[01:02:10] woman like Kate lived like this the sound of a fat buzzing fly whizzed in her ear as she noted

[01:02:17] the tea-colored canvas curtain dividing the cabin into halves obscuring the rest of the space

[01:02:23] they appeared to be completely alone she asked Kate if she'd come too early Kate said no without

[01:02:29] looking up from the table tonight summoning would be just the two of them non-believers she explained

[01:02:36] ruined everything driving spirits away with their negativity she gestured at the bench across from

[01:02:42] her almost commanding Julia to sit Julia watched a fly land on Kate's shoulder pause then rocket

[01:02:50] itself to a small window near the table where it joined a dozen other dark buzzing specks crawling

[01:02:57] on the curtain the smell was making her nauseous but Julia sat down stiffly they'd been planning

[01:03:03] this all week Kate was beautiful poised and educated with high cheekbones and a tiny almost

[01:03:11] feminine scar under one deep brown eye she was the favorite of the men who frequented the hotel bar

[01:03:17] where they worked given her outspoken disdain for puritanical societal rules and body sense of humor

[01:03:24] Julia had liked her instantly when she'd learned Kate too was a devoted spiritualist

[01:03:30] one who conducted sayances of her own Julia had been eager to spend the night with her imagining

[01:03:36] a stately parlor filled with other interesting people communing with the spirits of fallen

[01:03:43] civil war fighters but now sitting across the table from Kate with the flickering candle between

[01:03:50] Julia felt uneasy Kate seemed different her usual warmth was gone the window of flies vibrated

[01:03:58] ominously and the cabin smelled like a predator's mouth Julia began dreading the idea of spending

[01:04:04] the night in this dark dirty claustrophobic box in the middle of the prairie Kate eventually ordered

[01:04:11] Julia to close her eyes and began whispered chanting she called in low tones to the dead

[01:04:18] humming and chanting welcoming listening spirits to make their contact her fingers felt hot

[01:04:26] in Julia's clammy hands they waited Julia's breath began to feel narrow her chest tingled subtly

[01:04:34] she tried to focus but felt compelled to move as if tiny electrical current waves were flowing

[01:04:40] through her muscles was this the presence of spirits were they here Julia opened her eyes and

[01:04:48] felt her nervous system sees three faces stood behind Kate partially shadowed uneven and hard

[01:04:54] Julia could make out only pieces of each mobbender scowled down at her flanked on either side by

[01:05:02] the grizzled bulk of the gray haired popbender and Kate's adult brother John junior they said nothing

[01:05:10] she could see something gripped in popbender's hand weighing down his muscled arm hidden

[01:05:16] mostly behind the table and her sense of dread intensified Julia dropped Kate's hands and said

[01:05:23] hello to the benders frantically trying to understand where they'd come from no one had been in the cabin

[01:05:30] when she entered but Kate no doors had opened since she sat down she tried a feeble hello Kate's

[01:05:38] eyes finally opened but otherwise nothing changed Julia sat in the dark with the entire family

[01:05:45] staring silently back at her then an odd high giggle from John junior's end of the table made Julia

[01:05:52] jump in her skin the sound drove her from the bench stepping backwards she said something about

[01:05:59] the bathroom and made for the front door not bothering to grab her overcoat as she opened the door

[01:06:06] Julia heard the bang of something heavy behind her hitting the floor and broke into a full sprint

[01:06:12] shotgun blast shattered the night Julia flattened herself to the ground sound of blood rushing in

[01:06:18] her ears trying to disappear into the knee high grass there was shouting in German coming out

[01:06:24] of the cabin moving into the field John junior's giggle exploded off again maybe 15 20 yards behind

[01:06:32] Julia heard three distinct and different bodies moving around one heavy and lumbering two swift

[01:06:38] and ablefooted all creeping closer Kate's voice called out her name again saccharine sweet this time

[01:06:46] the light of a lantern bounced in the darkness Julia could see it starting to illuminate the dirt

[01:06:51] gripped between her fingers the older woman's voice again in German screeched from the porch through

[01:06:58] the air and Julia could hear John junior cursing at Kate they were too close now just a few body

[01:07:04] lengths to her side scanning the land she had one shot Julia heaved a large stone as hard as she

[01:07:12] could in the direction of Kate and John's voices waiting for its impact to grab their attention

[01:07:17] once they began to follow its sound she launched herself from the ground skirts gathered in two

[01:07:22] panic fists legs pumping as hard as she could move them I set on the scrubby brush next to trail

[01:07:29] which led back towards town the bender family watched wordlessly as her frantic silhouette

[01:07:35] disappeared across the road and into the scrabbley tree line later that week Jack Reed a newer addition

[01:07:44] to LeBette County, Kansas would recall to listeners at the local watering hole watching a woman sprinting

[01:07:51] the horizon near his tent as night fell moving fast enough to reach the next cabin by dawn

[01:07:58] Kansas has never been an easy place to live centuries before little house on the prairie romanticized

[01:08:05] a hard but honest life of living off the land the Cherokee and Osage nations were already documenting

[01:08:11] the territories unique challenges flash floods and deep freezes animal attacks and famine

[01:08:18] flat and dusty the area is prone to brush fires caused by lightning months of relentless hot

[01:08:25] and cold and the punishing cyclones made famous by the wizard of Oz the Kansas of the antebellum

[01:08:32] era immediately following the civil war was especially brutal a violently unstable expanse of

[01:08:38] underpopulated prairie abolitionist free state Kansas shared a border with the aggressively

[01:08:45] pro-slavery Missouri and the Confederate side remained outraged by Kansas long after the

[01:08:51] emancipation proclamation was signed bloody guerrilla warfare between the border ruffians

[01:08:58] and vigilance groups broke out constantly during the 1850s 60s and 70s even as fort scott reestablished

[01:09:06] itself as less of a muster point and more of an economic hub members of the Osage tribe had also

[01:09:13] been evangelized by missionaries right off their heritage land to make room for more white Christian

[01:09:19] colonists arriving from filthy port cities and bitterness between the quote savages and settlers

[01:09:27] had the ability to turn deadly so when a grim faced notoriously anti-social nut of a man named

[01:09:34] John Bender and a young man simply called John junior arrived in cherry vale Kansas around 1870

[01:09:42] no one particularly minded their oddness pretty much everyone on the frontier at that time was odd

[01:09:48] hard or damaged in some way war poverty and the wilderness do have a way of doing such things to

[01:09:55] people pa as John senior came to be called was a consummate asshole rude and perpetually

[01:10:03] scowling he primarily spoke German and often pretended not to understand English at all though

[01:10:08] he did perfectly well the younger man he traveled with was friendlier and almost handsome were it

[01:10:15] not for a pair of eyes positioned a little too close together but junior had an uncontrollable tick

[01:10:22] which caused him to giggle or laugh at strange moments so most folks dismissed him as simple or

[01:10:28] feeble minded the pair claimed 160 acres of land upon their arrival from elsewhere some stories

[01:10:36] say Pennsylvania Dutch country they hand built their 24 by 16 foot cabin on a carefully chosen

[01:10:43] plot just off the Osage mission trail they dug a foundation erected a wooden structure put up

[01:10:50] a barn in Carral planted a modest little orchard after about a year of digging, sawing and building

[01:10:57] pa and junior were joined by the rest of their family ma bender real name Elvira and Kate believed

[01:11:05] to be their 20 something year old daughter in the fall of 1871.

[01:11:10] Newspapers wrote that Elvira had and this is a quote the face of an old Dutch crone

[01:11:16] and was even nastier than her husband prone to bouts of screaming in German and foaming at the

[01:11:22] mouth Kate by comparison was very pretty well poshured and spoke almost perfectly unaccented English

[01:11:31] once the women arrived a small misspelled sign advertising groceries as well as a bed and

[01:11:37] hitching post for travelers went up on cabin property and thus the very small very modest bender

[01:11:45] in was born. The benders had smartly planted their roots far enough from any town to be a welcome

[01:11:51] respite for travelers along the Osage trail in either direction. Fort Scott was 20 full miles away

[01:11:58] the last stop in route from Cherryvale before entering open country. The inn was less a hotel and more

[01:12:04] a dirty hovel with a canvas curtain sectioning off a stained floor mattress stuffed with hay

[01:12:10] but given the terrain and savageness of the weather a roof, fire, pillow and safe place to water

[01:12:17] horses were almost people really needed or wanted and once word got out that the striking and

[01:12:23] personable Kate bender played hostess for guests the shitty little bender in seemed even more

[01:12:29] appealing to journeyman. Kate was unlike any other woman in LeBette County a self-proclaimed

[01:12:35] professor of healing arts and a spirit medium she spoke passionately about God the dead

[01:12:42] and the ability of unseen forces to perform miracles if only people believed in them and evowed

[01:12:49] spiritualists at a time when spiritualism was comforting the broken hearts of war widows

[01:12:54] and trauma survivors across a nation. She ministered to the bereaved arranging sayances and showing up

[01:13:01] at funerals of strangers to offer her services. She sold Pennsylvania's stutch style powwow charms

[01:13:08] another name for hudu satchels of dried herbs and blessed trinkets for fertility good luck and safety

[01:13:15] sometimes pressing them benevolently into the palms of seriously ill townsfolk with a smile

[01:13:21] for a five dollar fee. She could allegedly help locate lost items

[01:13:26] with the help of ghosts. Kate was also one of the frontier's earliest documented proponents

[01:13:32] of free love. In public lectures dark eyes a flame and bosom thrust out she trashed what she

[01:13:40] characterized as quote the miserable requirements of self constituted society including traditional

[01:13:47] monogamy and the idea that women were their husband's property one newspaper quote her directly.

[01:13:54] Shall we confine ourselves to a single love and deny our natures their proper sway even though it

[01:14:01] be a brother's passion for his own sister I say it should not be smothered. Though her ideas

[01:14:08] troubled some of the areas more traditional settlers the fantastically named Leroy Dick,

[01:14:14] a town trustee an unofficial law man of LeBette County wrote that he suspected she was a common

[01:14:20] grifter. She and John Jr nonetheless assimilated easily into the local community they attended

[01:14:27] church and bible study. John Jr may have been a little feeble but his knowledge of scripture

[01:14:33] and ability to quote it on command was admirable to any good Christian and Kate endeared herself

[01:14:38] to so many young men that the bender cabin for a time always seemed to have at least a few

[01:14:44] visiting horses parked outside. Besides LeBette County had much bigger problems than a potentially

[01:14:51] cookie goth hotty who occasionally talked to ghosts. As we've already laid out the frontier of

[01:14:57] the late 1800s was a deadly place given lack of access to medical care, the barbaric quality

[01:15:04] of surgery at the time and the perils of the wilderness life expectancy on the western prairie

[01:15:10] hovered around age 35 to age 50 depending on gender and profession. It was expected that travelers,

[01:15:18] even the most experienced trappers and traders would die traversing the Osage Trail. It was just

[01:15:24] the nature of these things. But around 1871 a sharp uptick in missing peoples started to garner

[01:15:31] attention from the entire state of Kansas. Bereft wives wrote to family and newspapers about

[01:15:37] husbands who seem to disappear into thin air. The railway company, inching its way through the

[01:15:43] territory, noted men contracted to work never showing up at the job site. The family of a much

[01:15:50] loved widower and his adorable toddler daughter Mary Ann mailed pleas across Kansas asking if he

[01:15:57] and the girl had been seen by anyone. In October 1872 two boys fishing near Big Hill Creek came

[01:16:06] across the bloated, reeking body of a man with a crater bashed into the back of his skull.

[01:16:13] Once the corpse had been dragged out and turned over, a foul, ragged, inch deep gash across

[01:16:20] the equator of his neck revealed itself. This was not the body of some unfortunate fallen rider

[01:16:26] or some unsuspecting snake bite victim. The Kansas Democrat and Osage Mission transcript

[01:16:32] printed the corner's full report, decrying the quote, hellish and barbarous crime as an obvious

[01:16:39] murder. Within a week one of the distressed wives of those mysteriously missing husbands turned up

[01:16:46] and identified the body of her husband, William York, a father who'd been using the trail to

[01:16:52] travel from their homestead to town to pay some bills. Within three months of the grisly discovery

[01:16:58] as many more men disappeared on the trail. One of them, the boisterous cousin of law man,

[01:17:03] Leroy Dick. A civil war hero named Henry McKenzie from Indiana, McKenzie had been on his way back

[01:17:09] from Dick's home in November of 1872 when letters to his wife and children simply stopped.

[01:17:15] It was bizarre. Henry adored his family and would never simply abandon them. He was in absurd

[01:17:22] good health upon leaving the Dick homestead. He was a gifted father and accomplished rider,

[01:17:27] but he was never seen alive again. Something and more likely someone was killing solo travelers

[01:17:36] along the only safe route through Osage County and it was doing so regularly. With no organized law

[01:17:44] enforcement in the still developing area, vigilance groups, an early name for bands of vigilantes,

[01:17:50] started organizing themselves to ride from town to town, tracking the missing and collecting

[01:17:56] lists of potential suspects. But given the total lack of bodies and the killer's aggressive head start,

[01:18:03] it wasn't until spring of 1873 that a break in the case actually came. William York had been the

[01:18:09] brother of a rising political superstar in Kansas named Alexander York when he too, very suddenly

[01:18:17] vanished without a trace around LeBette County. Well connected and part of what was considered

[01:18:22] a famously good family from the area, though he rarely identified himself as one of the York's.

[01:18:30] William's disappearance sparked an aggressive search of every single home in the LeBette area.

[01:18:35] Alexander himself jumped off the campaign trail to be part of the vigilance group,

[01:18:40] which stopped at the Bender family in in April of that year.

[01:18:46] And what he experienced there was bizarre. Alexander, his brother Ed and the men with them were almost

[01:18:53] immediately set upon by a screaming babbling mob bender the moment they set foot in the squalid

[01:18:58] stinking cabin, spittle flying from her raging mouth as Junior and Kate worked to drag her away

[01:19:04] than subdue her outside. Once the old woman had been pacified, Kate extended her deepest sympathies

[01:19:11] to Alexander and flirtatiously offered her services as a medium to help locate his brother

[01:19:17] for a price. Junior giggled uncontrollably in one corner while mob bender glared in at the

[01:19:23] tablo from outside palpably agitated but saying nothing. The York's were not charmed by Kate

[01:19:31] nor were they interested in her offer to commune with spirits to find their very likely dead

[01:19:36] sibling. Dismissing the whole family as barking mad, they rode back off to cherry vail,

[01:19:41] utterly frustrated. Once back around the vigilance group's makeshift work table at the local hotel,

[01:19:47] cup of whiskey in hand, Alexander began to vent about the absurd experience with the

[01:19:53] crazy Germans up at the Bender Inn. The fantastically named Leroy Dick was present and suddenly

[01:19:59] felt an urge of anxiety and disgust in his gut. Dick explained that over the last year,

[01:20:05] the Benders had fallen out of favor in their small community due to a combination of ma and

[01:20:11] paws volatile personalities, Junior's increasing weirdness, and Kate's shameless tendency to hound,

[01:20:19] vulnerable widows and sick folk to pay her for faith healing and psychic services.

[01:20:23] He recalled a very strange report from one Julia Hester, once a friend of Kate's who'd

[01:20:29] complained for a time to anyone who'd listened that the Benders had lured her to their home for a

[01:20:34] sayon's, then tried to kill her. No one had believed Julie at the time because the story

[01:20:40] was so outlandish but the visiting vigilantes listened with increasing intensity. The next day they

[01:20:46] began interviewing townspeople in earnest and learned that another local family complained early

[01:20:52] in the Bender's tenure in LeBette that they too had been lured to the filthy little inn.

[01:20:56] Kate had suggested the party take an evening stroll, and according to the victims,

[01:21:02] Junior then robbed their saddlebags during the course of the evening. The case had been

[01:21:06] investigated when it happened, but the Benders blamed roving trail thieves. And with no evidence

[01:21:12] to the contrary, everyone had let the whole accusation go. Another town's men dropped to the

[01:21:18] bombshell that he'd heard Kate and Junior were not brother and sister at all, but lovers.

[01:21:24] Perhaps married perhaps not, but certainly odd and absolutely crawling with sin. And his name

[01:21:31] was not even John Bender Jr. But John Gebheart. Lee Roy Dick suddenly recalled the horrifying

[01:21:38] hole in the skull of the dead man fished from the creek a year prior, and Julia Hester's claim

[01:21:44] that poor Bender had been holding something heavy and frightening in one hand.

[01:21:48] By the time the vigilance group returned to the Bender homestead, the property was completely empty.

[01:21:54] The family wagon, normally visible from the road, was gone. Wonky wheeled tracks still

[01:21:59] visible in the mud down the trail. When Lee Roy Dick, Alexander in ed york, and the rest of the

[01:22:05] team got indoors, the midday sun had amplified the putrid smell tenfold. No longer covered by the

[01:22:12] scent of food, Kate's perfume or the distracting chatter of John Junior. It had the unmistakable

[01:22:19] wreak of death. With some anxious searching, the team soon found a hidden trap door in the cabin floor.

[01:22:25] Leatherstrap concealed from plain view by the walnut table. Everyone immediately regretted opening it.

[01:22:33] A wave of putrefaction and flies ascended from out of the pitch black square like a hellmouth.

[01:22:39] One of the vigilantes vomited onto the cabin floor. The rest scrambling to cover their

[01:22:44] noses and eyes, insects crawled up between the floorboards, and a hesitant look into the space

[01:22:50] revealed a cellar, haphazardly stained with something rust-colored, something truly terrible,

[01:22:57] and absolutely deadly had happened here. It took several days over two dozen pairs of hands,

[01:23:04] and an entire town's sanity to finally unearth what had really been happening at the bender in all

[01:23:11] along. The cabin was moved off its foundation so that the cellar could be exposed fully to the brightest

[01:23:17] sunlight. A blood-soaked basement of death coated in entrails and a fluveum was revealed. It wasn't clear

[01:23:25] initially whether the butchery was human or animal given the lack of bodies, as the party worked

[01:23:30] to try and find where, if anywhere on the property the missing men they sought were.

[01:23:36] Leroy Dick searched what remained inside the cabin and found three heavy, frightening hammers.

[01:23:43] One, a handmade sledgehammer had deep dark stains on its menacing rockhead. Within another few days,

[01:23:51] it became clear that several mounds of what had originally appeared to be piled compost in

[01:23:56] the orchard were actually mass graves. They dug and dug one body, two, three, then another,

[01:24:05] and another. All partially or fully nude, all with skulls bashed in by something blunt and heavy,

[01:24:13] all with horrifying, frayed gashes drawn across the neck like blood livestock,

[01:24:19] and then came the body of the little girl. Two or three years old, most, the color of her skin

[01:24:26] and dirt in her throat made clear she'd been buried alive. Eleven bodies were found in total on

[01:24:33] the bender property, ten in the orchard, one standing upright in their well loaded like a bullet

[01:24:40] into a chamber. All except the little girl, confirmed as the daughter of the widower long acre,

[01:24:46] had been brained, and then had their throats deeply cut. All were front page national news by the end

[01:24:54] of the week. The media sensation was every bit as disgusting and unethical as the news we still see

[01:25:02] today anytime a serial killer is revealed. The local railroad, eager to cash in, set up temporary

[01:25:08] stops close to LeBette, allowing cars packed with disaster porn collectors the chance to see the cabin

[01:25:15] and graves very up close. The visitors stole everything not nailed down inside the cabin,

[01:25:22] tearing up plants from the garden and dirt from the cellar, displaying the macabre knick-knacks

[01:25:27] back in their own homes or selling them for profit. Reports from the corner and investigators seem

[01:25:33] to agree that each victim had been selected because they were solo travelers. One was a doctor,

[01:25:39] another a traveling lawyer, another that farmer going to pay his bills. The bender had tried to

[01:25:45] make sure that they killed outsiders only, not realizing that War Hero McKinsey of Indiana was

[01:25:51] actually their only Roy Dick's cousin and completely unaware that a very famous politician's brother

[01:25:57] had said in their home. There was no way to prove who had done what or when. Based on Julia Hester's

[01:26:04] account, most stories assert Kate was the serial killing mastermind using her charm to snare victims

[01:26:11] and then forcing her family into accomplishing. Slitting their throats is part of witchcraft or

[01:26:17] ritual after one of the men smashed them into a stupor from behind, but that's conjecture.

[01:26:23] Writers of this time love to call basically anything bad women did witchcraft. An outside of

[01:26:29] her psychic medium-grift, Kate never showed the slightest interest in occultism. Ma and Pa Bender

[01:26:35] could have been performing their eerie instability using the beautiful Kate as bait.

[01:26:41] John Gebhart could have been a brilliant actor and a brute killer, or he could have been a quietly

[01:26:48] giggling bystander. The smell of the cabin did ensure that all four were very guilty in some way,

[01:26:55] either of partaking in the killings or simply keeping the terrifying secret. A nationwide

[01:27:02] outcry for the Bender's heads screamed off the front pages four weeks on end. One poor soul,

[01:27:08] the Bender's nearest neighbor and fellow German immigrant, was strung up by his neck three

[01:27:13] times in a single night by a lynch mob. Erroneously convinced he must know the families whereabouts.

[01:27:20] Fortunately for him the rope snapped after he'd gone unconscious and the crowd had left,

[01:27:24] leaving the innocent and traumatized man alive to flee Kansas and probably avoid human contact

[01:27:31] for fucking ever after. But despite the rage of the Yorks, an influential family with political

[01:27:37] clout, the ire of Leroy Dick, his own cousin found mutilated within the mass graves,

[01:27:43] and the fiercest animosity of the entire frontier, the Bender seemingly got away with everything.

[01:27:50] Eyewitnesses on a train platform the night the Bender's fled LeBette swore they saw the family

[01:27:56] emerge from the woods where the family dog and wagon were eventually found together.

[01:28:01] Don't worry animal lovers, the dog was very much alive, though very sad about being abandoned.

[01:28:07] Ma and Pa allegedly hopped a train to Missouri with Kate and John heading to Texas.

[01:28:13] Others swore they divided along gender lines, with the women heading to one state and the men

[01:28:17] to another. With no real organized law enforcement anywhere in the area and suspects scattered across

[01:28:24] state lines, jurisdiction became a complicated issue. A federal order was needed to send the

[01:28:31] army in after each escapee and none was issued. No one suspected of being a Bender could be brought

[01:28:38] in on here say alone. And so, like so many other outlaws of the wildest west, the group simply

[01:28:45] slunk into the kind of relative anonymity generations dominated by the internet and facial

[01:28:51] recognition can only fantasize about. Now there is one odd epilogue to this story of familial serial

[01:28:59] killer. Laura Ingalls Wilder, author of The Little House on the Prairie, was reared on Kansas' flat

[01:29:06] dusty brushlands not far from LeBette. One night at a little bookstore event years after the initial

[01:29:12] publication of her now very famous books, Wilder told an audience of enthralled listeners how she

[01:29:19] and her father had stopped at the Bender Inn while traveling the Osage Trail to their homestead

[01:29:24] and how on another evening, not so very long after, a band of vigilance men on horses had arrived

[01:29:31] at their house, calling for her own pause help, saying that the murderers had finally been found

[01:29:37] and his services were needed. Mr. Ingalls had ridden off into the night with his gun and knife.

[01:29:43] When he came back home a few days later, he announced to Laura and the rest of the family

[01:29:49] that no one in Kansas would ever have to worry about the bloody benders ever again.

[01:30:02] The Red Ripper or the bloody benders, I mean these fucking names, unbelievable. Like no wonder people

[01:30:08] get fixated on these like fairy tale versions of kids. We literally, we give them like punk rock band

[01:30:14] names and then we like, we have handsome people play them on TV. We make it, we light them incredibly

[01:30:20] like it, we are kind of anyway. Yeah. Fuck this. What do you think of my story?

[01:30:25] I thought your story was absolutely terrifying from a literary point of view. I mean,

[01:30:32] you constructed a wonderful detailed analysis that transported me into the home,

[01:30:37] um, palpably. It was, it was fascinating. Did you feel claustrophobic?

[01:30:43] God, I wouldn't say claustrophobic. Okay, that's always going. No, but I mean, I could smell the

[01:30:48] place and okay, that's good. I'll take that. It reminded me of some weird places I had been as a kid

[01:30:54] and yeah, I know. I mean, you did grow up in a swamp. I've had a wildlife, but nonetheless, it um,

[01:31:02] just, ooh, this sense of stale, moly, muggy darkness where there's just something is,

[01:31:08] there's something rotting in the wall. Like and it might not even be something physical,

[01:31:13] but something spiritual like just a black hole in the world or a hell mouth as you described it.

[01:31:19] Yeah. Just a gateway to another place and this place where we're this strange place out

[01:31:27] in the middle of nowhere seemed to be an access point to something much, much darker than some people

[01:31:34] who just wanted to rob and maim some people on their way through town. This thing went deep.

[01:31:40] Yeah, it definitely did. And you know, it's um, we think about the prairie and we immediately

[01:31:45] think about Little House on the prairie. Uh, like, and so you do kind of like, or at least I do

[01:31:51] anyway. I'm in the age bracket. I'm not taking it from you. I grew up in the age bracket people who

[01:31:56] read those books. Yeah. And you know, sometime we would catch the reruns of the show, but like

[01:32:01] the prairie was part of the fucking wild frontier. It was a terrifying place. It was a

[01:32:06] excellent place to commit murders like these for, you know, you see them killing right in their

[01:32:13] own town over and over and over and over and over again. And had they not chosen two people

[01:32:17] recklessly? Mm-hmm. They probably would have gotten away with it for a lot longer before they got

[01:32:21] caught. It was only because, you know, eventually Leroy Dix family got drawn into it.

[01:32:26] Yeah, sure. Fantasticly named Leroy Dix and, and this famous politician's brother had they not

[01:32:31] murdered him. There's a really good chance that they would have continued on for quite some time.

[01:32:36] Um, it is worth mentioning that while there's that epilogue and Laura Ingalls Wilder did say this

[01:32:43] at a couple different readings over a couple different years she told the story, but

[01:32:48] memory is an unreliable narrator, an unreliable thing. And so it the timeline people have pointed out

[01:32:55] is a little hairy like Laura Ingalls and the paw Ingalls, the whole Ingalls family did live

[01:33:01] around LeBette County around that time. But it seems like Laura probably would have been a

[01:33:06] little too young to remember a vigilance group coming like she would have had to be three or four

[01:33:12] when it happened. And then there are some people who say that the benders fled before she was even

[01:33:17] born. Sure. And, you know, record keepings are funky. Also, it would have been very easy for a young

[01:33:23] Laura to remember her parents saying, Oh, we did stop at this end because they did live along the road

[01:33:28] where that in what was, but then paw being contacted about a different vigilance group issue

[01:33:34] later on and her sort of conflate those things. So it's possible that that story is not accurate at all.

[01:33:39] Well, do you think that they were brought to vigilante justice or do you think that they,

[01:33:44] you know, kind of filtered out into the world? That's a great question. I need to do more research

[01:33:50] on it to give you a solid answer. My guess is that I don't think that they were ever brought to

[01:33:55] justice. It feels like they did a pretty good job of just kind of disappearing. There was an

[01:34:01] interesting case that I'll talk about in a future secret story time for people, but it looks like

[01:34:07] two people whether they were ma and Kate or not were accused of being ma and Kate and got arrested

[01:34:13] and busted for a crime later. And it seems like some of the charges in that crime had more to do

[01:34:19] with people thinking maybe this is ma and Kate than the actual, it's a whole thing. But yeah, my

[01:34:25] opinion at this time based on the level of research I've done so far is that I think they just

[01:34:29] kind of disappeared into the frontier our way with it. It's interesting because, you know, if they did

[01:34:34] get away with it, it seems like the likelihood would have been that wherever they settled in whatever

[01:34:40] other town further out west that they would have gone back into this cycle of robbing and killing

[01:34:47] and cetera, et cetera. But that's the weird thing about the benders and that's the weird thing

[01:34:52] about serial killers in general like there's no there's no prototype. We kind of have an idea

[01:34:58] of the serial killer archetype that we gravitate toward as we talked about already in our

[01:35:05] little introductions, but there is no one size fits all. Yeah. In terms of motivation, methodology,

[01:35:13] how stupid they are, how smart they are, where they're from, their influence, their culture,

[01:35:18] their ethnicity, you name it, right? Right. But what I think is kind of interesting about this

[01:35:25] group is that let's say they were a family just for the sake of argument. There's something about

[01:35:31] this kind of shared experience where the benders almost acted like a single organism.

[01:35:38] Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. Absolutely. Yes.

[01:35:41] If, you know, guys and girls went one way and, you know, the other way they split up, maybe

[01:35:47] they're being like a bisection of said organism, that's why. Like they needed each other to be

[01:35:54] this way. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that the really good chance is that

[01:35:59] what you're saying is true, that once you divided the organism, it just didn't function the same way.

[01:36:05] Or like we said earlier, the frontier was a terrifying place. There was no DNA evidence.

[01:36:10] It was easy to bury bodies and have people. It's possible that once you didn't have that very

[01:36:14] tight knit and very isolated group that maybe whoever was the psycho killer in the mix who just

[01:36:21] couldn't stop continued to do it but just found a lesson, learned their lesson, like found a

[01:36:28] less conspicuous way to do it. I think that we should talk about this with some very well-seasoned

[01:36:35] gentlemen who have a lot of insight about serial killer storytelling. Let's get to our guest.

[01:36:41] Right. Gary, it's time to serve a, time to serve the boil.

[01:36:48] Well, hello guests. Welcome. Thank you for joining us here in St. and St.

[01:36:54] Louisiana during a 115 degree. Yeah, this is great. You're just having a blast. You

[01:37:02] sent me you smell delicious. So let's just get directly into, I don't want to say the meat

[01:37:10] of the subject because it feels like deeply inappropriate after the story. Yeah, I'm sorry, but

[01:37:17] yeah, let's ask our guest first of all since this is a show where we've just shared some very

[01:37:23] horrifying stories. Holt, were you a person who was kind of into serial killer lore or the pop

[01:37:33] culture interest in it at any point before you were being paid to be interested in it? Well, yeah,

[01:37:38] I mean, you know, I was always fascinated by the Manson family as an example.

[01:37:46] And I remember many years later when I was doing the show, Mindhunter, for Netflix with my friend

[01:37:54] Michael. I got to travel to the medical hospital in Foccoville which is actually for California

[01:38:02] which is actually a prison. Right. And got to meet several times, you know, with a guy named

[01:38:08] Bobby Bostolet, a former friend and musician who jammed frequently with Charlie.

[01:38:17] And he really kind of like told he's been in prison for coming up on 53 years I think.

[01:38:24] For the murder of a musician in Gary Hinman into Pagacanian, which people have tried to

[01:38:31] characterize as the catalyst for the Tay Lebi on Commerters. I'm not sure that that's not an

[01:38:37] oversimplification, but definitely my interest in it became much keener when we were doing a television

[01:38:45] show where we would interview a different serial killer every week and those in your audience who

[01:38:50] haven't watched the show, it's still up on Netflix and it's a great show so I'd encourage people to

[01:38:55] I would be interested. Yes, there is not a single person listening to this show that has not seen

[01:39:00] Mindhunter. Yes. And we should have started by saying we are outraged by it being canceled midway

[01:39:09] through like we got so invested in season one and season two and a whole you fantastic in it like

[01:39:15] tension's uh he's so straight lace but he's so tortured and he's got the sun and we were like

[01:39:21] you giving it. Oh god, it's just we're very upset about the cancellation. Absolutely.

[01:39:25] This is a type of show where we write to Netflix and I'm very angry at you for doing this.

[01:39:30] Stern letter. Sternly worded letter. And we feel the same way which part of the reason we asked

[01:39:35] you guys to be on which brings me to Michael. Michael, you know, I don't actually know about

[01:39:40] the serial killer history in West Virginia but can you tell me if you you know beyond being an

[01:39:46] overt talking heads fan. Well, I did I was not I wouldn't say it was necessarily serial killer

[01:39:55] focused but listen how gentle his voice is. He has committed murder. He's definitely a professional

[01:40:02] yes. But I did as a kid I was a big fan of monster movies especially you know the old black and white

[01:40:10] universal ones and and I did always kind of side with the monster like Frankenstein didn't ask to

[01:40:19] be put together you know. Yes, you know he thought the little girl looked like a flower so we threw

[01:40:23] her in the water. You know, next thing you know the town villages are all like you know

[01:40:29] coming with pitchforks. So passionate man and in King Kong didn't ask to be dragged out of

[01:40:33] this lovely island. Did a good thing go and they were on the whole thing. So I love those kinds of

[01:40:39] movies and then when when horror films started to transition into more events that could actually

[01:40:46] happen in the world and that and you started getting into the solves of the world. And those kinds

[01:40:50] of things I actually started to kind of back out of it then because then it was that started to be

[01:40:56] a little too much it was okay when it was sort of a fantastic fantasy land monster kind of thing but

[01:41:02] when it was actually things that did happen to some people I stopped finding it as entertaining. So

[01:41:08] I actually stopped watching like I don't think I've ever seen any of the soft films. I don't think

[01:41:14] you would like them. Yeah, I kind of I saw a couple of early things like that and was like I got

[01:41:20] this I know what it is and I don't need to fill my head with it anymore. Yeah. So it was interesting

[01:41:25] you know when we went to work on minehunter doing that reading and doing that research and stuff

[01:41:30] was kind of the first time that I'd sort of forced myself back into exposing myself to all of that.

[01:41:36] Right. Right. Hold is do you recall like the first piece of work that you saw were really affected by

[01:41:42] that was you know about a human monster or about a serial killer? Was there a movie or a TV show

[01:41:48] or something at any point that you're like oh this story you know really fascinates me or is

[01:41:53] ensnared me this was done really well. Well I remember I mean you know I wouldn't say that he's a

[01:41:58] serial killer but I I remember being deeply intrigued by Kubrick's a clock we're going

[01:42:07] and a protagonist that was intro what he'd called the old outro violence if you remember I could

[01:42:14] make towels you know unforgettable performance in that film and my friends and I would go they

[01:42:23] would do midnight shows and we were teenage boys you know and so you know we would dress all

[01:42:28] in white with the black bowler hats and try to you know imitate Alex and the voice. So yeah

[01:42:41] I mean I guess if that's what when Michael is referring to by you know I'm

[01:42:46] identifying with the monster with the monsters I definitely saw myself as the mountain

[01:42:50] mountain. Okay so you I mean you had a dark streak even as a young man so when when Fincher first

[01:42:58] approaches you with mine hunter were you champion at the bed or did you kind of take a step back and

[01:43:05] say I don't know this material might be a bit heavy I don't know if I want to go there. To be

[01:43:10] honest with you you know I didn't realize initially when David called you know I wasn't really

[01:43:19] familiar with the work of Robert wrestler and Robert wrestler was of course you know an FBI

[01:43:25] agent in the behavioral science unit later that what became the behavioral analysis unit you

[01:43:31] know he was partners John Douglas and all of that stuff and so you know I didn't really I didn't

[01:43:37] really understand that that David was talking about one of the protagonists you know I had worked

[01:43:42] for him in the past but in small parts I mean in movies like Fight Club and in three and you

[01:43:48] know when I realized that Bill Tent was going to be a major major character on the show and that

[01:43:57] you know this was really David offering me what felt like for me like a big promotion to be

[01:44:02] honest with you then I became super excited about it and look as Michael will tell you do you know

[01:44:07] mean I mean he was there with me you know we're talking about one of the best filmmakers of his

[01:44:13] generation you know I mean so it's it's exciting you know every day you know for an actor when

[01:44:20] you get to step onto the set and know that you're going to work with a director who cares that much

[01:44:26] about you know about the material what about you know just so yeah so it was it was it was um

[01:44:35] it was a really it was a really memorable experience you know and I you know I share your

[01:44:40] pain to a certain degree we were we were hoping that it would continue um but you know even having

[01:44:46] had the opportunity to do a couple of seasons uh but you know I got no regrets you know I mean I

[01:44:51] wouldn't I wouldn't give back like that experience it's still one of my one of my favorite things I've

[01:44:56] ever done in the business yeah the performance is spectacular um you know some of our heart rate

[01:45:01] is not getting to see some more of the serial killers you know brought to life through these like

[01:45:06] really remarkable character actors who came in and you know did did that work as Manson and uh but

[01:45:12] my heartbreak is like I wanted to know what happened with Bill and his son like I don't know which

[01:45:16] is Phil son okay you know it's it's it is really hard as viewers to to lose a show midway through

[01:45:22] that way hold you you may be able to confirm or deny this but is the reason why I because a lot of

[01:45:29] people still ask this question I'm like why did this show go off the air they don't understand it

[01:45:33] it was so beloved was it mainly just about venture having other projects just kind of moving on to

[01:45:39] other things scheduling issues with everybody involved well look at you know I can't really speak

[01:45:44] for David you know um you know he's uh he's addressed this issue in interviews and stuff like that um

[01:45:50] it was a very expensive show to produce right very expensive and you know it wasn't like we were doing

[01:45:56] the same kind of ratings like stranger things you know what I mean or some kids on Netflix you know

[01:46:01] we did have um fans of the show that were really passionate about the show really loved the show

[01:46:09] you know they have to have enough eyeballs do you know I mean to justify any expense yeah also it's

[01:46:13] a very I think it was a very difficult show you know you know for David because remember like

[01:46:17] you know he doesn't do anything halfway right David's gonna do something he's you know he's

[01:46:22] gonna put all of his energy and all of his talent and all of his time into something so you

[01:46:28] know he moved to Pittsburgh you know um and oversaw every aspect of the production so he

[01:46:34] personally directed four episodes out of the first ten right but he was in charge of the whole

[01:46:40] production did directed most of the reshoots you know um directed multiple episodes in the second

[01:46:45] series was there all day long every day wow you know and look I won't name names but I subsequently

[01:46:51] did a show for a showrunner who and I won't say who it is because you know I don't have to

[01:46:56] criticize anybody and you know but you know never visited the set I'm talking about a showrunner

[01:47:02] yeah I'm talking about the balls who lives in another country and never in did we did two seasons

[01:47:07] of the show just like we did on my nutter and never once things that control free that sense

[01:47:14] done my shang thing I've ever seen yeah so so with David you know uh you don't have that problem

[01:47:20] he's in his office the movie or he's a good if you have a question and or you have an idea

[01:47:24] that you'd like to present you know he's open to that um you know he's a much more collaborative

[01:47:28] guy than people that is and his his mantra is that the best idea wins so that I might come from

[01:47:36] you know uh one of his actors uh you know but even if it comes from you know the Dolly grip you

[01:47:41] know nothing against my friends that are that are Dolly grips you know what I mean but like

[01:47:45] it's a good idea you know I mean um you know you know David David may go for it right

[01:47:50] you know so um so that's exciting too because it really motivates you to do your homework and

[01:47:57] to do as much much research as you can about each of the killers and you know uh because you never

[01:48:02] know what might spark an idea yeah I mean that might be resting when you're in rehearsal

[01:48:08] and what horrible horrible homework to have to do consistently I mean I know it's fascinating but

[01:48:14] Michael for you so for people who don't know Michael Michael has played more than a few

[01:48:20] killers he's played one of the greatest serial killers in fiction lore which Sweeney Todd

[01:48:26] I think we could safely say that Sweeney Todd fits the profile of she's serious far superior

[01:48:30] to the cinematic version yes yes my Michael was a stand-alone Sweeney Todd in his own right but also

[01:48:38] Sweeney fits the profile of a classic serial killer and that there's a pattern uh there's more than three

[01:48:44] there's consistencies and ritual to how he did it true um the singing maybe not always a part of

[01:48:50] the typical serial killer profile but that was just a little plus yeah I'm gonna ask Colt about

[01:48:55] what the homework that he had to do and that all of you had to do to sort of participate mindfully

[01:49:00] in mind hunter but like what kind of research if any did you find yourself mired into like prepare for

[01:49:06] I'm gonna play some some psychopathic behavior to play Sweeney yeah um I guess there's not as much

[01:49:14] research to do necessarily you know for that Victorian penny dreadful yeah I mean I

[01:49:19] familiarize myself with the cultural beginnings of the Sweeney Todd story really just sort of

[01:49:27] to immerse myself in the world more than anything else it wasn't really necessary I think a lot of

[01:49:31] times the the research that actors do is not specifically to get some bit of information that you

[01:49:39] think you're going to actually use in the performance it's just just kind of immerse yourself in the

[01:49:45] world and and put yourself in a place that's different from the places you know um and often you

[01:49:53] discover things that are actually not helpful I remember when I was doing a lot of reading about

[01:49:59] John Wilkes Booth when I was doing assassins and I discovered that Booth was killed just before

[01:50:07] what would have been his 27th birthday so when he died he was actually 26 but there's a lyric

[01:50:13] in assassins where the the balladier says 27 years of age yes and um so I went to Steven

[01:50:22] So I discovered that Booth was actually 26 and he was quiet for a minute and then he said

[01:50:32] yeah 27 sounds better yeah yeah we'll go with your idea Steve you know what Steve

[01:50:39] uh we're gonna let you have this now your your character Ted gun in mind hunter Michael

[01:50:45] he wasn't based on a real person no he was kind of an aggregate of the the blue flavors

[01:50:52] in general so what was your inspiration or where did you draw from or where did you see the importance

[01:50:57] of this character in the central narrative of mind hunter in this very real time in American history

[01:51:04] well I read John Douglas's book you know to begin with and uh just to be as familiar as possible

[01:51:12] with the world and read some other you know books by people in in that you know that yeah um but then

[01:51:19] from there really a lot of my time went into just immersing myself in the script and the process

[01:51:29] of doing mind hunter as you know Holt knows better than I um was so unique you know we would sit

[01:51:37] and work we would have table work for a week or two weeks before each block of episodes

[01:51:44] where we sat all the actors that around the table with Fincher and um and the writers were either

[01:51:50] there with us or on you know remote uh zoom stuff and we went through every script and did

[01:51:57] you know did rewrite and read through scenes several times and talked about them and what made sense

[01:52:02] what did we not understand you know it's a kind of stuff that you do on a play but you never in my

[01:52:07] experience ever do on a television show sure film and we did that all of the time and it in

[01:52:14] fascinating it was it was amazing because yeah really connected you with the material right and

[01:52:21] gave you a lot of a lot of opportunity like Holt was saying to offer an idea or an observation

[01:52:27] or say you know I don't understand this or what about this and I think it saved time ultimately

[01:52:34] on the set because a lot of the questions that sometimes get asked on the set and stop

[01:52:39] filming in the middle because some of the realizes oh right we completely missed this point

[01:52:45] in the writing um those things were were settled beforehand and and also you'd had time to work

[01:52:51] and actually rehearse these scenes where yeah it makes things so much more rich and stuff so

[01:52:58] so that was kind of my experience I did I did a fair amount of reading beforehand but then once we

[01:53:05] started actually filming it was just the deep participation in and the writers on that show and

[01:53:12] and Fincher were such an incredible resource I mean most of what you needed was either on the page

[01:53:19] or in Fincher's head right and he was going to get it into your head one way or another right

[01:53:25] so Holt what kind of research did you end up doing to sort of prep for the role and in doing that

[01:53:31] research did you find anything that like really unnerved you you know you're a um a powerful

[01:53:38] and masculine man in your many performances you play a lot of military guys and cops and you

[01:53:43] know like people who seem really tough so is it possible to rattle Holt's project may him

[01:53:48] every project is it is there anything that gets under your skin and makes you go whoa actually I

[01:53:52] don't really like that at all well you know sure I mean you know in terms of in terms of what

[01:53:57] kind of research you do you try to do everything that you can possibly think of and you're visiting

[01:54:04] Quantico the FBI headquarters but you know going to visit John Douglas Junimine as soon as I was

[01:54:11] authorized so you know we had another wrong guy Bill McCrary who had been a colleague of John

[01:54:18] Robert wrestler was dead he died in 2013 and we didn't start you know well I didn't find out

[01:54:23] I was going to be good doing the thing until 2016 so I couldn't meet with him but I would have

[01:54:28] I wouldn't like to met him but I met as many of the guys who had been in the behavioral science

[01:54:33] unit as I could and you know and I went to went to to spend a weekend with John Douglas at his

[01:54:39] home in Virginia and you know and and then later you know I tried to meet as many of the serial

[01:54:43] killers as I could I remember famously I I um oh boy had and a guy a little friend who had

[01:54:50] been wrongfully convicted of murder and I won't until the details of that story because it's a

[01:54:55] long conversation but anyway um he was he was sentenced to 25 years to life you know for a crime

[01:55:02] that he didn't commit and has been incarcerated for the better part of 20 years but I had been

[01:55:07] to prison multiple times to see that young man um in conjunction with another project that I was

[01:55:13] researching and developing and you know and then I got you know um I was doing mine hunter and I found

[01:55:20] out that he was working in the prison library with David Berkowitz the son of Sam

[01:55:26] in a place called the Huangdunk Correctional Facility in New York about two hours north of Manhattan

[01:55:32] I got a message to my friend a young man his name is John Juga and um and he said you know

[01:55:39] look I spoke to David he says who meet with you you know I was very sure to I was very you know

[01:55:46] and David had kind of rebranded himself you know the the son of hope instead of the son of Sam

[01:55:51] when he convert he became a born Christian and he received a lot of visitors at the time but they

[01:55:56] were mostly people from the church and he had a deep distrust of the media probably for for

[01:56:00] very good reasons you know and uh you know but I I made it a point to to say to uh to John

[01:56:08] Juga my friend you know look you know like I'm not gonna ask him to rehash the details of his crimes

[01:56:14] you know those were all the way back in the late 70s do you know I mean you know um their decades

[01:56:18] decades in the past volumes have been written about them and it doesn't interest me what interested

[01:56:24] me was to sit with the guy and see who he is now because the big question you know that that

[01:56:30] existed in my mind was you know this issue of like nature versus nurture right and a lot of the

[01:56:37] law enforcement guys that I had met with uh including mr. McCrory had used uh you know uh

[01:56:42] these analogies like if you're making a cake right and you put all the ingredients in the cake

[01:56:46] the butter and the eggs and the sugar and the flour and everything you need to make the cake but

[01:56:49] just before you put it into the oven some motor oil spills into that cake and you take that

[01:56:55] and can you get that motor oil out of the cake you know it's like these gentlemen you know and

[01:57:00] again I don't want me to put words in their mouth but they didn't strike me as as having a lot of

[01:57:04] faith in the idea of really rehabilitation like if somebody was adding often do you know what I mean

[01:57:10] that they could kill seven women by assuring them and that you know what I mean then then it didn't

[01:57:15] matter if it was 40 years later or more that they should they should remain behind bars and you

[01:57:20] know and look you know um um Leslie Van Van Hooten you know what I mean who was one of the

[01:57:25] Manson girls you know who was president you know at the the Long Young River you know you know

[01:57:30] was just recently released from prison and you know and similarly you know Birkowitz has been in

[01:57:35] jail for a very very long time and you know and so I just wanted to I just wanted to be so I drive up

[01:57:42] to Shawangug and as I'm going into um uh the the prison there are some corrections officers

[01:57:48] coming out and they recognize me from like some action movie that I did and suddenly they're like

[01:57:54] hey you're that guy right the real guy that you know and then um and then I'm sort of like

[01:57:59] posing for photos you know what I mean and some autographs or corrections officers you know I mean

[01:58:05] having a long conversation with them about why I'm here and what I'm doing and you know and um

[01:58:10] and by the time I got in um it was a Saturday and visiting hours uh we're ending you had to be there

[01:58:16] before two yeah man and just to keep it in the parking lot and they kept me there too long so I drove

[01:58:21] all the way back to New York City and then I scrolled all the way back the next day and I got I

[01:58:27] you know you go through the whole process of locking up all your wallet and your money and then

[01:58:31] they take a few quarters for the vending machines in the visitation room and you know I'm waiting

[01:58:36] there and I'm waiting there and I'm waiting there finally one of the corrections officers comes out

[01:58:41] he says listen um David is refusing the visit you know he's with people from the church and he

[01:58:47] says he's refusing the visit so I never got to meet Berkowitz and that that what that taught me was

[01:58:52] that you can't trust serial killers you know they break their word you know so but you know

[01:59:05] you know I wrote I wrote a letter to Ed Kember you know because I thought maybe I can meet

[01:59:11] me with Kember because he's in Valkybel too the same facilities that had both the lay I figured

[01:59:18] I could meet you know man and I knew who was going to be tricky first of all by the time we started

[01:59:22] doing the show he was already in ill health right and also because of his like international you

[01:59:28] know because he's internationally notorious you know there are all kinds of like you know people who

[01:59:35] want to meet with him and what do you know what I mean for me so he's he doesn't have that many

[01:59:40] visitors you know and and and and Kember had unfortunately from what I gathered from the prison staff

[01:59:47] who confided to me certain things that maybe they weren't authorized to do he he bear little resemblance

[01:59:53] at this stage to the character that's portrayed in mind hunters yes that guy and you know

[01:59:58] and at the time in that period in the 70s you know I mean um but in more recent years he had kind

[02:00:04] of given up on life and you know was comfortable wheelchair and got no visitors at all even from his

[02:00:12] family and had you know you know difficult relationship with the prison staff so that that was

[02:00:16] impossible but you know you try to do whatever whatever you can think of and you're and you're

[02:00:21] constantly you know because we were doing a new serial killer virtually you know every week or

[02:00:26] every other week you know there was always somebody new you know to me at the you have to because

[02:00:31] they're all different and you know and they're and their signatures are different their M.O.'s

[02:00:36] are different the way they commit the crime the reason they commit the crime you know what I mean it's

[02:00:40] it's it's you know so there's always there's always something new to learn in terms of me

[02:00:46] getting creeped out you know I guess the honest answer to that is the men that that happens to

[02:00:54] are actually the homicide detectives that have to investigate those cases and try to bring

[02:01:00] the traders to justice because you know unlike me as an actor yes I can go to a prison and I can have

[02:01:08] a conversation with an inmate the committed murder do you know what I mean and I can have but I'm

[02:01:13] still but I'm actually still an actor do you know what I mean it's not that that kind of search

[02:01:18] isn't useful it is useful you do have an experience that approximates the experience

[02:01:24] that your character would have had but it's not the exact same experience right there's a boundary

[02:01:28] there there is right that boundary doesn't exist in the same way for the men who actually have

[02:01:34] to try to catch these guys right so you know for them you know they're constantly thinking about

[02:01:39] the crimes they're constantly looking at the crime scene photos talking to the families of the

[02:01:45] victims trying to put together in their minds you know step by step what the killer would have done

[02:01:51] and you know and often taking their home work home with them at night do you know mean and it can

[02:01:57] affect their family life and it can affect them you know emotionally and psychologically

[02:02:03] and you see guys you know becoming alcoholics and you see having nervous breakdowns like John Douglas

[02:02:09] do you know what I mean and you know and they see themselves I think quite rightly as you know

[02:02:15] performing a role that's very necessary in society do you know either of these you know like

[02:02:21] heinous killers out large right so those guys can often become very deeply affected by these

[02:02:33] investigations you know in a much more profound way than I think for an actor that makes sense

[02:02:39] hey hold what what's the name of the the guy who did come and visit the set sometimes was it Bill

[02:02:46] yeah but Crary yeah yeah and he wrote a book called the Unknown Darkness right on which

[02:02:51] called you know his experiences on the famous killer and up in Rochester New York but he had

[02:02:58] some great cases you know working with John Douglas working with Robert wrestler working with

[02:03:03] with that whole team initially he was brought on because there was some there were some complications

[02:03:09] surrounding John Douglas's deal I think is what it was and I don't know exactly what the specific

[02:03:13] stuff of work but it took some time for his deal to close and so initially you know we had been asked

[02:03:18] not to not to have interaction with John which was hard because you know John wrote the book

[02:03:23] yeah I mean and really wanted to speak to John and as I say I couldn't speak to Robert

[02:03:27] wrestler because Robert wrestler was dead yeah so you know as soon as as soon as you know I was

[02:03:33] I was allowed to contact John I did and I got to say you know he was very gracious to me always

[02:03:40] willing to get on the phone you know as was my query you know what I mean and you know when I

[02:03:44] would use the boat as a resource you know because you know you often have technical questions

[02:03:49] about how we looked at an investigation do you know what I mean and sort of you know and the

[02:03:54] writers of course you know are doing similar research you know and they and we had good writers

[02:03:59] but that doesn't mean that you do as an actor don't want to hear it from the horses. Sure I remember

[02:04:04] him visiting a couple times and I remember talking to him and having that that sense that you

[02:04:10] were talking about of just I was asking him questions and specific things about interrogations

[02:04:16] and things and and as I was speaking to him I was just really conscious of him looking at me

[02:04:24] and and feeling really like I was being thoroughly analyzed and assessed yeah and

[02:04:32] and you know there's part of me that's going but I'm not a serial killer. I'm not

[02:04:39] doing anything. No no I'm not. Where was I last night? But yeah he was so fascinating and I was

[02:04:45] trying to like soak all of that up and try to figure out what it is that that is happening that

[02:04:50] is giving me this feeling. That makes you feel that way so that you can kind of emulate that but

[02:04:54] the whole part. Just the way he's you know sort of looks at you without doesn't seem to be looking

[02:05:00] at you but is taking you in. Well I will say you did a great job in your performance of every delivery

[02:05:06] and some of the scenes where you're talking with Anna Torv and some of the when you're first meeting

[02:05:11] Holt's character and the first time you're talking with Jonathan that like you're very direct

[02:05:16] and you're very cordial and it felt like you had an ulterior motive for everything that you're asking

[02:05:20] what you're doing and I was like he's doing a really good job because Michael's not like this in

[02:05:24] real life. Well he's just like a nice guy but I'll tell you a secret to all of that was a note

[02:05:29] that Fincher gave me early on out of the hearing of all of the rest of the cast which was

[02:05:35] in each one of those three scenes when you're meeting the three of them. I want you to copy them

[02:05:42] and do back to them. Yeah, mirror them. So you know talk to Holt the way Holt is talking to you

[02:05:49] and look at him in the way that he knows you and same thing with Jonathan and the same thing with

[02:05:54] Anna and that's why he seems to be three very different people in those three conversations.

[02:06:01] Good note. Yeah, it's part of a like an old management style. Sure. Yeah, I mean keeping with that

[02:06:10] same vibe of what you're sharing with Michael, do you have any favorite or memorable behind the scenes

[02:06:17] or on set moments that stick out to you? Oh god. I mean it was all it was all a favorite

[02:06:24] moment. It's one of my favorite jobs I've ever had on screen just being a part of that ensemble

[02:06:31] and being a cog in that incredible machine. The stories that people tell about Fincher's multiple

[02:06:41] multiple takes are not exaggerations. You called me and I was like what was day one you know a

[02:06:46] filming like it and you were like so we walked down the stairs 22 times and that's to make sure

[02:06:53] that the stairs looked great when we walked down them 22 times and I was like all right that's awesome.

[02:06:58] It was it was it was that but it's also I started to feel like and Holt I wonder if we haven't

[02:07:05] really talked about this ever but um I felt like when you would have those scenes where you just

[02:07:12] would do take after take after take and and Fincher was often just there not he wouldn't watch

[02:07:18] from video village he would watch from just like just offset so he could step right on as soon

[02:07:23] as you finished to take and he would start talking and and it would it would be sort of notes or

[02:07:32] thoughts at first and then at a certain point he almost was like he was basically giving you your

[02:07:37] interior monologue and talking you through what he wanted you to be sort of thinking and it would

[02:07:45] even start to incorporate some of your dialogue and I'm sure there were actors who were like

[02:07:49] I don't really need to be given you know a line reading whether you are yeah um and I just felt

[02:07:55] like he was just sort of like talking in and trying to put your brain on the same wavelength as his

[02:08:02] and then then he would just step away and and then you would go on and and the net result of that

[02:08:07] kind of repetition for me was sort of getting to a point where you stopped acting and you're just

[02:08:14] because you didn't know you done it so many times by this point you couldn't judge

[02:08:19] what you were doing anymore and you couldn't edit yourself and you couldn't be trying to do anything

[02:08:24] right you just started actually doing things like a human being and that was what I felt like he was

[02:08:30] after in the performances and it's certainly what it looks like when you definitely

[02:08:35] be on display does look that way the my other favorite part of of being a part of all this

[02:08:40] was getting to work with Holt and Jonathan like my favorite aspects of the show were just getting

[02:08:48] to work with them and Holt was so great from the very beginning like when I first went there at

[02:08:55] recognizing that this was going to be kind of a daunting thing and that you know that doing a

[02:09:00] David Fincher show is not like doing a regular television show and Holt took me out to brunch

[02:09:07] I don't know if you remember but that that first weekend when we met and and sort of you know just

[02:09:11] gave me some pointers and some tips and sort of said you know you'll you may encounter these things

[02:09:17] here's how to look at it without being you know drilling up in a corner in your hotel room later

[02:09:24] and and I was always so grateful for that and and it was just the best part of the show was

[02:09:28] getting to do that and and watching Jonathan Groff try not to giggle in scenes which is pretty much

[02:09:34] what he did the more perverse the the stuff that was happening in the scene the harder it would be

[02:09:42] for Jonathan not to just giggle while he's talking about someone's underpants being stuffed in their

[02:09:47] mouth yes yeah yeah I can imagine knowing Jonathan a little bit in his deep sweetness and kind of

[02:09:55] kindness it wasn't who seeing him kind of like mashing that world we're going to get into the story

[02:10:00] as quick but I Holt I just wanted to sort of throw the same question you is like what what did

[02:10:05] you love most um what's a memorable experience from this you know incredible piece of art about serial

[02:10:11] killers that you did wow you know I mean um there were you know we were there for two years

[02:10:16] you know so there were a lot of memorable moments you know as I say you know it's it's um whenever

[02:10:23] you're working with an a-list director and you've got a great cast you know people are super

[02:10:29] talented guys like Jonathan and Michael and some of the really wonderful actors um that are

[02:10:36] casting director Lourey Mayfield found to play the serial killers you know Cameron Mr.

[02:10:40] Cameron Britton you know who was nominated for an Emmy award you know for playing at Camper

[02:10:46] in a mean really really memorable performance in a very difficult part you know so so you know part

[02:10:54] of it was just was just that I remember um you know an actor named Oliver Cooper uh who played

[02:11:00] uh who played Durgawood's the son of Sam came up to me you know in a restaurant in LA and he said

[02:11:05] you know uh Holt I just have to say you know what a pleasure it was working with you on on

[02:11:11] my hunter and I said to him uh what did you do on my hunter I was I was virtuous I was like you

[02:11:20] were because you know he did a um he did a six-hour prosthetic makeup right dude you know

[02:11:27] uh as did the actor who played Charles Manson right when the guy walks through the door he looks

[02:11:32] exactly like Manson yeah so that was kind of like the really you know the really exciting part

[02:11:40] about the whole experience just knowing that you know I mean Michael gave what's probably the best

[02:11:46] example you know I have others but you know um which would be uh those long rehearsals that we

[02:11:52] would do that and with the actors around the table unheard of yeah in the television business right

[02:11:59] and you know and this is I mean part of a larger issue which we could you know get into or

[02:12:05] or not but you know the difference between director driven television and writer driven television

[02:12:10] and you know you know the problem you know with a lot of shows is that you know you know television

[02:12:16] series television is generally not really a director and an actor's medium it's a writer and

[02:12:21] producers medium and um and the writer is king because you know you know the idea is he has to

[02:12:28] continue to generate stories every week you know I mean we have to make 48 hours of television you

[02:12:32] know that 48 minutes of television with 12 minutes for commercial when you start with the entire

[02:12:38] season already written before you ever shoot one frame of film which doesn't mean it isn't

[02:12:43] gonna change in the rehearsal process and certainly you know the original scripts did change a great

[02:12:48] deal because of decisions that David made it along the way but those rehearsals are invaluable

[02:12:54] and there's a reason you know as I'm fond of saying you know there's a reason they got created

[02:12:57] rehearsal such a tremendous advantage for the actors do you know me to be able to test as Michael

[02:13:03] said you know to familiarize yourself with it to put it on its feet a little bit to try that to ask

[02:13:07] questions why am I saying this right and I say this in the previous scene is it redundant what

[02:13:12] if I said X instead of Y you know could I you know and and to try to make it your own and to try

[02:13:16] to find you know the truth of the character of what this guy is really feeling you know and when

[02:13:21] you have when you have a uh uh director like David who likes that process who likes that exchange

[02:13:26] of ideas and who welcomes that and wants you to go off do your homework and then pop and present

[02:13:34] how you would like to play the scene and then I'll look at that and I'll tell you do you know

[02:13:39] me if I'm happy with it or if I'm unhappy with it or if there are things about it that I like

[02:13:43] and things about it that I don't like and I'll make adjustments but it's really it's really the

[02:13:48] actor's responsibility I think you know in the first analysis to you know to to come with some ideas

[02:13:54] you know what I mean about what what what you'd like to do and then and then he'll and then he'll

[02:13:59] he'll bring it to life I remember on one occasion you know I said this recently in an interview

[02:14:03] I didn't for the for the times you know I you know about um a scene with my my son

[02:14:11] you know and it was the last scene I ever filmed with the young actor who played my son

[02:14:18] and it was in a nice cream shop and um you know my wife and I are having brums and uh the boy

[02:14:26] is at brums and this is you know struggling to try to figure out you know what kind of father he

[02:14:34] can be to this young man right and you know and David said keep in mind now you know this is it

[02:14:41] this is what it's going to be this young man may never change may never grow beyond where he is

[02:14:48] at the moment you know that that you're never going to have the normal experience

[02:14:52] Junemy of fatherhood and throwing the ball in the back your with your son it's a very interesting

[02:14:56] note to offer me at that moment in time because you know it was kind of like you know the eradication

[02:15:01] of hope you know we sometimes cling to this notion you know to me that there's a more hopeful

[02:15:08] outcome possible Junemy no matter how unlikely you know it may be but if you eliminate that from

[02:15:15] your thinking and you say to yourself you know um this this may be just the way it's going to be

[02:15:21] you know um you find yourself in a very different place emotionally so you know he

[02:15:27] will as a director sometimes you know like you know to cut through you know and get to the really

[02:15:33] the essence of something you know I mean in that it's very unique you know he's just a really

[02:15:38] really smart guy and uh you know maybe that's why he's become one of the most successful directors

[02:15:45] you know yeah he might be on to something well now that we've just talked about one of the greatest

[02:15:49] you know uh living storytellers uh let's very awkwardly transition into our stories which now feel

[02:15:55] incredibly subpar and not up to snuff but uh it's gonna be fine words it's fine I'm not having

[02:16:00] imposters syndrome at all um so Michael uh we're going to start with Edward's story talk to us

[02:16:06] about your just initial gut impressions pretend you're just an audience member who stumbled across

[02:16:12] a true crime podcast and we're like I just listen to this fucking story and now I need to take a

[02:16:18] shower and now I need to take a shower in holy water and uh yes slap myself with a rosary so what was

[02:16:23] your initial reaction to this terrible tale from the USSR? I well on the one hand I couldn't believe

[02:16:30] that I'd never heard about this because like something of that scale and that scope you would think

[02:16:37] would have been worldwide knowledge and movies would have been made about it by now on everything else

[02:16:43] um the red river the fact that it takes place in the Soviet Union kind of explains why you didn't

[02:16:49] release part of it yeah um and then the my other kind of principle reaction was just like it was

[02:16:56] just overwhelming so much so many victims so many multiple offensive offenses committed on each

[02:17:07] of those victims and and the the fact that the search was hampered by the Soviet state

[02:17:14] just not really taking it seriously or not wanting it to be uh public knowledge allowed it to continue

[02:17:21] for so long yeah it just was I just felt overwhelmed by the amount of horrific detail in it yeah

[02:17:29] yeah his story to me really hit is like this is human fuckery like layers upon layers upon just

[02:17:36] whether it's government where it's political whether it's psychosocial or they're like oh

[02:17:40] let's go after the queers and the vagrants and you're like or or there's all of these other types of

[02:17:46] people yeah who you could look into a reduction of fuckery might have caught him many years prior

[02:17:53] yeah yeah that's that's did you find yourself uh sympathizing with Andre at all Michael

[02:18:01] I started to by by the end you know when you when you start to get into the you know his backstory

[02:18:07] and and what happened to him as a child his the way he was treated by his mother and um I started

[02:18:14] to have some retroactive uh sympathy but but I think the problem was right there was so much

[02:18:22] initial sure stuff heaped on it yeah there's horrific yeah it was a little hard to kind of remember oh

[02:18:30] actually was a human being was a child himself right at one time yeah uh you know fell

[02:18:35] fell victim to to a lot of terrible things I do remember the moment that you talk about with his

[02:18:41] mother and and wife having to help him out of the news that he was trying to

[02:18:47] handle that yeah that that stuck in my mind is a as a kind of pathetic humanizing moment yeah regardless

[02:18:54] of whatever else he had been doing just being at that point like think of how the world could have

[02:19:00] been different had no one helped him out of that rope too yeah you know yeah fascinating to

[02:19:05] think about let's jump to the halt what was your initial feelings impressions you know overall just

[02:19:12] were you familiar with the red ripper story before this I knew I wasn't familiar with it you know

[02:19:19] you know I did find it deeply you know fascinating you know obviously the Soviet Union under

[02:19:26] under Joseph Stalin you know um you know with his you know uh you know collectivism and all of those

[02:19:32] you know disastrous policies that result in a million people of dead and widespread famine

[02:19:37] and yeah the way that chickatilo my pronouncing is good yeah perfect you know you know grew up in

[02:19:45] in you know an abject poverty and said that he never even tasted bread until he was 12 years old

[02:19:51] and he was the sickly kid the descended stomach that was bullied etc one of the things that I found

[02:19:56] really interesting just because of having worked a minehutter was the fact that it was the first time

[02:20:02] that the Russian police brought in a medical professional

[02:20:05] yes and profile yep and you know and and and and the guy made a study of it and eventually came up with

[02:20:12] a pretty accurate profile you know which I thought was which I thought was super interesting and it

[02:20:19] didn't involve you know vagrants or homosexuals but Helm said you know like that he said that the guy

[02:20:24] was you know likely well-educated you know what I mean right right and then you know and eventually

[02:20:33] you know um you know they were they were able to catch him you know what I mean and it was

[02:20:38] significant to me that when he was arrested he didn't resist he didn't say word it was that

[02:20:43] he understood yeah yeah and found him and he kind of knew what his faith was gonna be yeah did you

[02:20:52] you know like Michael feel any kind when we were giving the backstory of like okay here's the

[02:20:58] antecedents to how this person became did you feel any empathy or sympathy for him where you just

[02:21:02] like fuck this guy I wouldn't say that I got to the place where no I could feel empathy for Chikotilo

[02:21:11] he says early on right that he came to understand that he got sexual pleasure from watching other

[02:21:20] people suffer yes he did say that and so you know in theory then you get more sexual pleasure

[02:21:27] from watching them suffer even more right you know I mean and uh no uh it's it's very difficult

[02:21:36] you know to feel empathy you know for a guy like that I mean yeah I'm certain that he had

[02:21:42] a very difficult childhood but many people in Stalinist Russia would have had very difficult

[02:21:46] childhoods and didn't kill 53 people or I think he was convicted of 50s remurs right and then

[02:21:53] you know we're overturned because of lack of evidence well you know that's till 42

[02:22:00] you know what it was probably yeah you know um you know he was executed and it was I was never a big

[02:22:08] proponent of capital punishment because of course you know we have had instances in this country

[02:22:13] of people you know actually being put to death and then later DNF and some urges that shows

[02:22:19] that we didn't have the right guy you know what I mean and so yeah so it's so you know um but I think

[02:22:24] on that occasion maybe you know they have to write guys yes and uh you know it's hard to shed a

[02:22:30] lot of tears for for someone like that especially the stabbing the eyeballs so is not too

[02:22:37] to leave the image for the other thing yeah just in case this weird magic Russian fairy

[02:22:45] superstition is true I'm gonna stab you in the eyeballs I said if he hasn't done enough I can't tell

[02:22:51] you what it was like to edit the sentence about liking the feel of uterus and testes in his mouth

[02:22:59] I was just like I need to seriously rethink what I'm doing with my life if this is yeah yeah

[02:23:06] what I'm editing for choices for context for the listeners my original draft of this story was so

[02:23:13] graphic that I cried I cried this was the first time in human fuckery history where Kimberly was

[02:23:20] like full stop no absolutely no and so I was like okay you take it and kind of take out some

[02:23:29] of the more graphic and visceral details but on that specific subject one of the things that he

[02:23:35] he liked so much about tasting uterus and testicles specifically was that he liked the feeling of

[02:23:42] elasticity in his mouth it was very disgusting yeah 20 years of journalism 25 years of interviewing

[02:23:55] people from all walks of life about everything from sexual trauma you know child abuse to you know

[02:24:01] that fuckery you know in court like I've heard some really horrible stories this is the first one

[02:24:07] where I actually cried and said we have to tap it out yeah tap tap like I'm in over my head I'm

[02:24:13] drowning right now but so we've got this red ripper story it does seem like we're yeah especially

[02:24:21] with the success of Domer this last year so it and the success of things like American horror

[02:24:27] story and like you've said saw over the years it does feel like we've been trending in a direction

[02:24:32] where like gory horrible psychopathic sadistic behavior is like for some people entertainment it

[02:24:38] doesn't do it from my nervous systems not wired that way personally but Michael would you like to

[02:24:43] see a red ripper movie made well I was I was just thinking maybe mind hunter season three Russia ghost

[02:24:51] mind hunter obzky much cheaper budget yeah you can do it all in a bunker which is sort of like

[02:24:57] yeah do it like succession where you just like film in a series of bunkers and maybe like a cold

[02:25:01] forest yeah yeah yeah like some of the Nazi propaganda films Putin will actually be in the show

[02:25:07] and he will catch the killer that's that's how we'll do this that's how that's how the government

[02:25:13] will fund it 100% you're right though I think it has been in the last in the last while like I don't

[02:25:19] know 10 years or so it seems like there are so many more there's so much more interest in serial

[02:25:25] killer things and true crime stuff and I remember Hulk took me to this event that John Douglas was

[02:25:32] moderating it was a panel with Amanda Knox and is it one of the Memphis Memphis three guys

[02:25:39] the Damien Eccles yeah yeah yeah yeah about about wrongful convictions and I was fascinated that

[02:25:47] there was it was at town hall and it was packed I was fascinated that there was this much of an

[02:25:52] audience for this event and then I came to find out oh this event is just part of a whole true

[02:25:57] crime convention oh yeah crime cons a big thing yeah yeah I was amazed we are an interesting species

[02:26:05] the things that we do for recreation there's a lot to unpack there Hulk would you like to see a red

[02:26:11] ripper movie or do you think it's maybe best for humanity that we not dig any deeper and end

[02:26:16] this stuff you know probably if I had to pick I would pick the benders if I'm not like

[02:26:23] spoiling things by changing the subject no we could change the subject and the reason I

[02:26:29] would is because it's always fascinated me of serial like a family of serial killer yeah

[02:26:40] the mother the father the sister the brother if he is the brother do you know what I mean

[02:26:45] all involved you know what I mean in this crime I remember the first time that I read

[02:26:52] in cold blood by Truman right you know all the buzzer I had really been and you know I had

[02:26:58] spent part of my childhood in Nebraska my mom my mom was from Nebraska she was she was

[02:27:03] misnabras and it takes place in part you know in Nebraska true story about these these two guys

[02:27:10] and there are other examples of this you know in cases that we studied you know who together

[02:27:18] do you know I mean combined to commit crimes that probably neither one of them would have maybe

[02:27:26] had the courage to commit if they were alone but somehow their personalities complement each

[02:27:33] other in a way that they become capable you know I mean of the intent of doing things you know

[02:27:40] so this was really interesting to me you know with the benders you know because like you know

[02:27:48] the the characters were we're all so different you know the father do you know I mean that you know

[02:27:54] deeply anti social father the you know the baby brother the charismatic daughter right right

[02:28:00] exactly the charismatic daughter do you know I mean you know always like soliciting men and you

[02:28:06] know and her you know interest in the occult and you know when speak the dad ends all of that stuff

[02:28:12] and this grimy little in do you know they run do you know where you can check out but you can

[02:28:18] never leave me the thing just writes itself so tell Kansas so there's something cinematic about that one

[02:28:28] now you're definitely right that's that's a good point well really quick before we transition

[02:28:32] on to mine Edward I wanted to ask you uh the holds holds actually helped us get to this question what

[02:28:37] made you pick the red ripper story uh there were so many to choose from for this episode more

[02:28:43] less than it was a story with a tremendous amount of gravitas I mean obviously how prolific he was

[02:28:50] in the fact that he was able to carry on for over a decade and most of us over here on this side

[02:28:55] of the world had never even heard of this but it was very reminiscent of some of the big hunts

[02:29:02] for serial killers throughout the golden age that we've referenced at various points um I wanted

[02:29:09] to expose people to a different kind of a different journey down this same road. I'm really happy

[02:29:14] that you did and I did thank you as far as the storytelling goes that that little tag at the end

[02:29:20] hey as a result of this man hunt they did end up solving a tremendous number of crimes that

[02:29:26] did need to be solved and had been under police and everything. I wonder if they were just covering

[02:29:31] their ass by saying we may have fucked this up. I choose to believe that lie because I need to be

[02:29:36] able to sleep at night after doing this episode. I hope you're right honestly. I do hope it's

[02:29:40] right but I thought your story choice was amazing even though I did cry after hearing draft one

[02:29:47] that's not to undermine your new story telling a year or so. It is a horrible story. It is a horrible

[02:29:51] story. Completely dissociated while writing it for your own safety. There it is. Well,

[02:29:56] Michael what were your first impressions or kind of feels about the the the bender story?

[02:30:01] Well I agree with Holt that it felt like a movie as you know as we are listening to it and a lot

[02:30:07] of it is because there you know there's more specific detail about the the place and the

[02:30:15] the setting of it and there is something really fascinating about this collective of people

[02:30:22] working with this shared to whatever extent. Maleficent purpose right right and and the characters

[02:30:33] are so creepy and weird and like dark carnival yes. Yeah, a little house on the carnival like

[02:30:39] it's very terrible. Well, and that's the other thing too that you can also wrap it up with like

[02:30:45] more ankles down. Yeah, we're going to get there like what the fuck. It gave me big Eli Roth

[02:30:50] hostile vibes too. Yes. Like a hot young girl luring people back to the weird you know

[02:30:56] stained canvas curtain they you know the books about it and the so there's a wonderful book about

[02:31:01] it that we're going to tag in the show notes so that people can read more about this the story if

[02:31:06] they want to but you know there's people really were pulling the crime scene apart and taking

[02:31:12] pieces of it so there's all of these documents from newspapers across the time about like I got a

[02:31:18] piece of that canvas like that canvas curtain that was dividing the room and I got a piece of this

[02:31:22] bed and I stole you know a lee Roy Dick managed to get the murder weapons out but pretty much

[02:31:26] everything else was taken by you know disaster porn collectors of the time and so there actually

[02:31:32] is like pretty incredible records. So I was able to put a lot more detail into it than you would

[02:31:36] if you're trying to go through like Soviet case files years after they've been declassified.

[02:31:40] Well, I had a bit more access additionally I had to kind of pull back on the visual story for

[02:31:45] because it involves so many kids like it's so many traumatizing yes it's too much to

[02:31:49] traumatize to put the listener in the room was just a non-starter yeah at my stories a little unfair

[02:31:56] in that it felt like I can tell a bit more of it without you know doing emotional damage to the

[02:32:02] listeners because it's 200 years ago so you sort of feel like there's some distance between you

[02:32:08] and it you know but there's also already lost writing it so I don't care I'm good.

[02:32:14] You're gonna say what? Well, it's also it's at a really interesting point in the country's history

[02:32:20] and the expansion west and and I hadn't really thought about you know Kansas as this kind of

[02:32:27] barren scary pioneer sort of area and and the fact that as you're traveling people are just like

[02:32:35] walking along or you know maybe taking a wagon or something but and the fact that you become

[02:32:42] a successful in because you're no matter how shitty your place is it's a place right

[02:32:48] it's the last place for the next 50 miles that you have to walk or whatever so so all of that was

[02:32:54] kind of intriguing and and and and the very beginning feels very contemporary like yeah this young

[02:33:01] girl going to a to say you know with this cool older girl and so all the you've done a good

[02:33:09] job of sort of saying hey I like the the sort of cinematic aspect of this but was there any other

[02:33:14] impression that the the benders or this particular story made on you it's really fascinating to

[02:33:19] to ponder like how did this all begin do you know you know who was their first victim um how was

[02:33:29] that individual killed do you know I mean you know which member of the family you know you know

[02:33:35] precipitated you know I mean you know this this undertaking and and and how were the others

[02:33:42] recruited into this enterprise Jeremy were so many because they talk about you know so many

[02:33:48] you know on a company travelers disappearing yeah you know you know what do they call it on the

[02:33:53] O.C. County. Yeah O.C. is missing trail yeah you know that's that's that's what would be that would

[02:34:00] you know this is and this is of course you know David's approach you know in with mine hunter

[02:34:05] was that it was the psychology of the kills it was really it was really interesting you know

[02:34:11] yeah showing them committing their crimes you know I mean um is is you know potentially

[02:34:19] you know you know too graphic and too brilliant you know I mean for audiences to especially you

[02:34:25] know I mean you know Kemper talks about cutting off his mother's head and then having sex

[02:34:31] I mean with your head you know big core sir you don't I mean burying the head in the back you know

[02:34:37] stuffing or voice parts down the garbage you know you know you know say but yeah but that

[02:34:47] that that's what I think if you could get to that point you know um where and and look you know we

[02:34:53] have a lot of uh you know uh very talented writers in Hollywood if they're ever allowed to go

[02:34:57] back to work you know what I mean is to figure out you know um uh what the internal family dynamics

[02:35:06] of the vendor family really are yeah do you know what I mean and I also find it very interesting

[02:35:11] you know that they were smart enough to know when the jig was up and sneak up down at the 11th hour

[02:35:17] and evade prosecution you know I mean so they weren't stupid no it's a great point and it's actually

[02:35:23] really salient point because you know so much of the way that they got away with the shit that

[02:35:27] they did it was like well the sun you know he's a little feeble is the word that they always

[02:35:31] use or simple minded and the parents are nuts and Kate's well educated but you know they're crazy

[02:35:37] they're just crazy and so that's kind of how they got away with a lot of these things that were like

[02:35:41] you know antecedent events as far as like hey there was this robbery hey there was this weird thing

[02:35:44] with this girl Julia hey you know like they were able to pass off oh we're just some baddie Germans

[02:35:50] where some baddie crazy people but obviously somebody was savvy enough to go those people are here

[02:35:56] for a reason we absolutely did not can pick them pack your shit up we're getting out of here

[02:36:01] and yeah it's my big question and researching it that like I just couldn't get an answer to but

[02:36:06] wish it could was like where the parents actually unhinged anti-social or were they like

[02:36:13] quietly coming to the table after they're acting was done and being like how do we think we did

[02:36:16] on this you go right you go dig this you do that like who who was might want to dial back

[02:36:21] yeah yeah mom if you could just spit a little less on the guys when they come in next time it's

[02:36:25] just a little much have to clean it was just the whole the the reason I chose this story is that one

[02:36:31] Edward what is it 80 or 90% of our serial killers are male yeah right yeah so I'm fascinated by the

[02:36:38] you know the people who are outliers in that statistic and then the idea that there was just a group

[02:36:43] like Holt said you know the idea that there was like individuals who may not have had the skills

[02:36:47] necessary to do this but as a unit I mean they were crushing it 11 bodies plus the one loaded into

[02:36:52] the well like a bullet like just upright they never identified that body by the way they never found

[02:36:58] out who it was so it was just yeah might as just stepped into a hole and just left them that's all

[02:37:02] yeah yeah it was baby Jessica yeah I don't think that that was it so it also that they're you know at

[02:37:09] first you think they're all related and so in some ways you think oh well I guess if the family

[02:37:14] starts to go down this path you know then you know one for all for one right then one of them

[02:37:20] may not actually be and it isn't there was a question that I wasn't able to like it just for

[02:37:26] time I didn't want to get too into it but there were questions about whether Kate was even their

[02:37:30] daughter like did a did a group of disenfranchised kind of nutty opportunistic people meet up north

[02:37:38] and decide you know if we go out to the frontier where we have a lot of space and it takes weeks

[02:37:42] for male to get anywhere and people are just kind of pat and you know this whole period in the

[02:37:46] the reconstruction of America they were just getting giving land away with somebody else's land

[02:37:50] but they were giving that land away and it's like was this just a perfect storm of crazy and a little

[02:37:56] crazy Eli Roth cabin or was this a very well calculated you know put together thing where people are

[02:38:03] like let's just go rob and murder some people and see what we can get away with so um we're getting

[02:38:08] closer to the end of this but I have a question for both of you that that's kind of a big question

[02:38:14] but it attaches to you know the point of us doing this episode we don't do episodes like this

[02:38:19] just be like who wants to hear some fucked up stories the sort of purpose of human fuckery especially

[02:38:24] in season two has been to uh to try and make the point where we can that if you don't take care

[02:38:32] of the least of us some of these horrible nightmarish things that everybody so set uh you know upset

[02:38:36] about our natural byproducts of failing to care for people um and so Michael do you first

[02:38:44] do you uh feel like some obviously not all there's there's things that you can't always do but do

[02:38:51] you feel like some of this extreme violence in the serial killers that uh we're talking about in this

[02:38:58] episode uh our bar byproducts of child abuse not taking care of people not forming strong communities

[02:39:05] that there are things that we could be doing uh as a culture that might perhaps not produce these

[02:39:11] these big terrible outcomes yeah absolutely I think um I think holds analogy earlier about you

[02:39:18] know the cake and the elements being put together is is a perfect one and you have a bunch of

[02:39:25] different people with a lot of those same ingredients but then you add a certain malignant

[02:39:31] element to one of them and it's it's not surprising that it's going you don't know how it's going to

[02:39:37] affect the person it could for some people it might actually turn them into a more altruistic

[02:39:42] person they they're the way they're put together they may find that as a catalyst so they're becoming

[02:39:50] a much better person but much more often I imagine it it goes the other way and I think

[02:39:56] I think these both these stories um but especially Edwards kind of show the the negative results

[02:40:03] of being abused as a child and being bullied and maybe having your brother eat

[02:40:09] and maybe have your brother eat and I think I think there's you know plenty of evidence that

[02:40:15] that's the case and that we are failing miserably especially in this country at taking care of

[02:40:23] the least of us Edward I'm going to kick to you before Holt because you did some research you know

[02:40:30] Edward is our doctor our doctor of psychology clinical psychology in the room so

[02:40:35] you know you come from this is from a very clinical sort of academic choice but what's your

[02:40:40] feeling do you think if we take better care of people some of the antecedent events

[02:40:46] might not end in horrific violence yeah I think that anyone who is predisposed to

[02:40:53] anti social behavior there has to be an environmental factor that expresses that predisposition

[02:41:00] and so even though somebody can kind of come out of the belly having some motor oil in the mix

[02:41:08] if they're nurtured if they're cared for if their life is cultivated in a way that demonstrates

[02:41:15] meaning that they matter that they develop connections with people that you know go beyond just

[02:41:22] acknowledging their existence like some kids that just feel like they're put on a shelf when

[02:41:27] their parents are through with them that those things don't necessarily have to take place

[02:41:33] I don't think that anyone is damned to per se and even though for decades our belief has been

[02:41:40] you can't treat a psychopath their treatment resistant sure but it is not impossible to treat

[02:41:47] a psychopath either there's still someone in there right well and you told us off air repeat this

[02:41:54] for everybody Chicatilo was not a diagnosed psychopath he was not diagnosed psychopath but I mean

[02:42:02] psychopath behavior yes but what did you say about what was his diagnosis I'm not his doctor

[02:42:07] like but we're all clear that you were not Chicatilo's therapist it's possible but don't don't write

[02:42:13] in I'm saying that it might have been limited but he was only diagnosed as borderline and

[02:42:20] sadistic okay and so we do know that you can treat borderline you can't always treat psychopathic

[02:42:29] behavior and you can't always treat sadistic behavior especially if there's you know in

[02:42:33] trench thought loops and obsessive compulsive behavior but there are treatments for borderline

[02:42:38] all what about you especially after you know reading the books that you had to remind Hunter

[02:42:43] and talking to some of the people you do it sounds like you're somebody who really believes

[02:42:47] in rehabilitation but it is also okay to say you know rehabilitation is possible in some cases

[02:42:54] and also in others maybe it's best that they were actually yeah you know I think I think I think

[02:43:02] that's probably true you know and I think it's possible in certain cases and not in others

[02:43:08] I mean you know I told you earlier in this conversation that I had been multiple times to

[02:43:14] Vacaville to the California St. Melical facility in Vacaville to interview Bobby Bosella because he

[02:43:21] was in close seat of Charles Manson because he knew all the close because you know he murdered Gary

[02:43:26] Henman you know I mean he's been a jail for 50 years and I thought that he could and especially in

[02:43:31] that time when we were when we were doing the Manson family do you know I mean he just seemed like

[02:43:35] yeah you know the perfect but I can tell you now having met with him that you know he's 73 years old

[02:43:41] you know and you could release Bobby Bosella you know he was 52 years ago that he killed Gary

[02:43:49] Henman because of a drug deal that went bad and I know that he has remorse for that he's expressed

[02:43:56] he's been imprisoned for half a century he's no longer a threat to society you could release that

[02:44:03] guy tomorrow you know he's got medical problems he's not gonna commit another murder

[02:44:09] he just wants to live out the few years that he has left do you know what I mean with

[02:44:13] measure of you know he has a family you know so you know it's hard to get people you know to

[02:44:19] acknowledge that you know the sister of Sharon Tate a woman named Deborah Tate has made it her sort

[02:44:25] of life's work to try to assure that anybody with any association with Charles Manson or any

[02:44:32] association at all with Tate lobby on the murders remains in prison you know in perpetuity

[02:44:39] and shows up at the hearings and argues against you know releasing the you know you know

[02:44:44] people and you know and and and Bobby was in prison when was was in jail was in custody when his

[02:44:50] sister was murdered do you know what I mean so he had nothing to do with that crime and you know

[02:44:56] you know uh uh she clearly holds holds in responsible in some way yeah so you know

[02:45:01] I think it I think it depends I you know and I think also you know um it's really interesting

[02:45:06] to see the way in which as the culture has changed also the frequency of these crimes

[02:45:13] you know has changed you know we go back to the golden era of if you want to call it that

[02:45:19] do you know mean when many of these crimes in the 60s 70s 80s do you know mean an end to the night

[02:45:24] well there are many that's not that they don't exist anymore but there are far fewer of them now and

[02:45:29] what we've seen the rocks of our mass murderers yes you know I mean jihadis you know what I mean

[02:45:35] suicide bombers you know I mean and murder mass shooting stuff that we stuff that we haven't

[02:45:41] been accustomed to in that era do you know what I mean but as it comes our our era's version if

[02:45:47] you will of a you know a similar problem you know how do you how do you detect you know what I mean

[02:45:52] who might be capable you know of that kind of an attack you know I mean how do you prevent it it's not

[02:45:58] it's it's uh it's not easy it's not easy you know it's you know it's it's an endlessly

[02:46:04] fascinating subject it really is psychology and the the psychological underpinnings of sexually

[02:46:10] motivated homicide you know there they're you know there's so much you know to understand it was

[02:46:16] it was easy for me you know when I you know to just see why you know some of these some of these

[02:46:22] guys devoted their entire lives do you know mean to this subject some of them with a particular

[02:46:28] you know a specialty do you know what I mean whether that was you know perpetrators of

[02:46:33] of you know child sexual assault or or or or the do you know some of them so so you know

[02:46:41] I found the I found the whole subject you know um you know endlessly fascinating and you know

[02:46:48] I still do so you know even there's either then there's no more mind hunter episodes to come

[02:46:55] you know it hasn't kind of dampened my interest in this subject at all. I'm happy to hear that

[02:47:01] I hope that you don't have to take in too many more stories like the jiketila one but I guess

[02:47:06] there's things to learn from from all of these so um we're we're gonna do the the part where you're

[02:47:12] gonna pick what you think the the winner is and you're gonna tell us why no one's gonna get mad at you

[02:47:18] or or psycho murder you if if you if you've not chosen theirs well Edward might he's got a lot of

[02:47:24] childhood in season we need to talk about but Michael which story are you choosing as the winner

[02:47:30] and why this is this is really tough not not only because we're in a band together and if I

[02:47:37] am not going to quit the band we're going to the game tomorrow. Good um I I feel like my sympathies

[02:47:47] are more with the bender story like just because it's uh it's such a detailed cinematic interesting

[02:47:56] because the family aspect um and I was able I think I think the the thing that prevented me from

[02:48:04] getting more deeply into Edward's story was just the sheer volume of stuff it was just uh yeah

[02:48:12] I just kind of shut down a little bit as I was listening I think we could have predicted that actually

[02:48:17] we want to just vote for Edward's because I feel like more bodies between between

[02:48:23] more bodies more fun. He's also because because he you know took into account your feelings and your

[02:48:32] reaction to the story when you first heard it you know his initial draft of it and then

[02:48:38] and kind of hamstringed himself yeah so in some ways I feel like Edward should be should be awarded

[02:48:47] my vote because he was responsible and kind of hamstringed himself somewhat by by picking

[02:48:55] this. I'll take the honorable mention. Michael, it's fine. It's fine. So it's kind of a

[02:49:01] a qualified vote for the the benders. Oh, okay. So you're you're picking the benders. There's

[02:49:08] an asterisk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Miss Congeniality goes to Andre Chicatilla. All right. That's fascinating.

[02:49:15] All right. Okay. Well, thank you very much. Yes. We'll pass it over to Holt. Now's the time.

[02:49:23] Pick a winner and justify your answer. Well, look, you know, I mean, as as as interesting

[02:49:29] as as Chicatilla is on a certain level, we're still talking about a guy alone wolf serial killer

[02:49:38] who's own personal sexual dysfunction leads him to to act out, you know, sexual fantasies.

[02:49:45] You know, the savage of savagery and butchery. And you know, I mean, all those references to

[02:49:51] the knife kind of like, you know, symbolizing as he stabs and stabs and stabs some of the victims

[02:49:58] tiny times. Like that. I mean, we certainly studied guys like that, you know, for the show. But I

[02:50:03] think the benders is a more interesting story for the reason the Michael said it's just it's

[02:50:07] just more complex because it's it's it's trying to get, you know, multiple participants to all

[02:50:16] sign on, you know, to this kind of like exceptional brutality. You know, where is the one,

[02:50:26] you know, sane voice in the group that says God, you know, isn't you know, aren't we doing

[02:50:31] something you know, and being really horrific here? And like I said, you know, the evolution of

[02:50:38] how that came to be would be very, very interesting to uncover. Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping that some

[02:50:45] some person is hearing this as like, oh, we could do the benders story also maybe we'll just buy

[02:50:49] the rights to it and do it ourselves. And one final thing that I'd like to share just to,

[02:50:54] you know, just because I think it's relevant to this conversation is that all the reasons that

[02:50:58] I think we're going to continue to see a decrease in serial killing, you know, to me in terms of just,

[02:51:05] you know, as a percentage of of types that are committed in this country of yours is because

[02:51:12] you know, DNA evidence has evolved to such a degree now with relationship DNA testing and with

[02:51:18] cousin 23 and me and ancestry.com and I mean that it's become a lot harder to get away with these

[02:51:26] crimes than it used to be in the old days and the golden state killer, you know what I mean? And

[02:51:32] and you know, in his recent, you know, apprehension and incarceration just one example of that.

[02:51:37] But there are people now that can, you know, access databases, do you know what I mean? And determine

[02:51:43] okay, you know, the person we're looking for, you know, is the second cousin of this guy.

[02:51:49] Right. You know, I mean, so that's that's that's another interesting aspect of this just the way

[02:51:56] the law enforcement, you know, and the technologies at their disposal continue to evolve in a way

[02:52:02] that's going to have, you know, an impact on these kinds of crimes. That's a really good point.

[02:52:06] Yeah. And I am happy that it is happening that way. I just kind of hate that we're living in a bubble

[02:52:11] where we've actually created perfect environments for measuring. So like we got one thing right?

[02:52:16] We're like, oh no, we created a brand new problem. Well, somebody somebody else can fix that problem.

[02:52:23] I'm tired after this episode. I need a very long now next episode.

[02:52:27] Next episode, Kim's nap. Guys, thank you so much for participating in this this long ranging and

[02:52:34] thank you for listening to these stories. They're so fucked up. You're very intrepid

[02:52:40] committed guests. And we really, really appreciate it. And also anyone listening who somehow missed

[02:52:45] my hunter go and rewatch the show. It's a beautiful, beautifully acted, beautifully lit,

[02:52:53] beautifully shot, beautifully told. But it also does a really incredible job of touching on some

[02:52:58] of the things we tried to in this episode, which is yes, these people did horrible things. And just

[02:53:03] we're not making excuses for those horrible things. But also people become the way they are

[02:53:10] for reasons. And that's why the taking care of each other and being thoughtful and being kind

[02:53:15] to children is actually incredibly important. Well, it's so easy when you just think of

[02:53:22] of people as monsters to just dismiss them and not and not learn anything from it. Yes.

[02:53:28] Definitely not what that show did. Yes, yes. It's not glory porn for criminals. It's more about

[02:53:35] here's the culture of how we get here. And the way a culture deals with a crisis that they've created.

[02:53:42] So gentlemen, we're going to release you from your prison. Please enjoy the rest of your summer.

[02:53:48] And we love having you on the show. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

[02:53:53] Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for letting us hang. You got it. Take care.

[02:53:58] And that's our last show for this season. A massive thank you to all of the guest judges over

[02:54:08] the past 12 episodes. Your insights were invaluable. Your punchlines were priceless, especially

[02:54:16] this week. I can't help but thinking about our Charlotte and scam artists episode now that

[02:54:20] Billy McFarlane is putting on a fire festival too. And it is almost nearly sold out.

[02:54:27] If you want to learn more about someone who had first-hand experience with Billy, go back to

[02:54:31] episode two this season. Was that it or three? Yes, it was the Charlotte and scam artists episode.

[02:54:37] Yeah, we circled back. My God. All of it was priceless. It was a great season.

[02:54:42] And we are all slightly smarter and less fucked up people for the conversations you helped make

[02:54:49] possible. If you're new to this show, definitely go back and listen to them being brilliant,

[02:54:55] funny. You won't be sorry. We also keep enormous gratitude upon Sergio Gonzales Pagan,

[02:55:03] intrepid composer and musician behind some of the underscoring you heard in the background

[02:55:09] across this season. If you'd like a season three of this show to come out, please consider subscribing

[02:55:17] to www.patrion.com. Slash human fuckery. Studio time, music, sound effects, research,

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